suggustions to make gang more fun

[KikiMofo]

Personally I don't see gang mode as Gangs vs Security. I see it as Gangs vs Gangs and sometimes if there is sec that round they get caught up in the middle of it.

[Zafhset]

I can attest from experience that there is a lot of unnecessary frustration that comes from gang members not wearing their outfits -

1) walking by or being near locker areas, I have been mistaken as a gang member and beaten the shit out of.
2) as sec, it almost feels like rev when a staff assistant, doctor and miner suddenly mob you.
3) when one gang goes full murder mode, this drags down EVERY existing gang as there is no reliable way to distinguish which gang started it. This has a domino effect where security/crew start attacking gang members and gang members retaliate in kind.
4) Friendly gang activities will be an exercise in frustration when the above happens. This will also encourage more hostile focused activities.
5) The gangs that don't follow a uniform code will usually out perform the other gangs due to stealth and less scrutiny. This further discourages other gangs from wearing them.

[Frank_Stein]

Yeah... I don't think gang members need to receive any buffs from wearing gang uniforms except maybe some resistances. Stamina and HP probably aren't the way to go. I think having to wear at least one piece would be good.

Maybe make gang clothes the best in terms of environmental protection? Spaceworthy, protect you from heat and cold

[kyle2143]

I'm not sure if encouragement is the best route to take here, as you're inherently buffing gangs against security by raising their stamina, less so their health. I would suggest bullet proof clothing instead if this buff doesn't go as intended, the reason is obvious.

I know you feel gang clothing shouldn't be forced, but I might suggest at least one article of clothing be forced on them, not to stop stealth antaging, but gang V gang violence would be committed with more confidence if you know for a fact that the target is gang, maybe not from the immediate view as the player enters your vision - but upon observation.

Let me try to explain why I feel so strongly against forcing gangs to wear their outfits. Back when that was the case, gangs were in a weird spot where they weren't full antags and weren't technically allowed to kill civillians nor be killed simply for being in a gang. Which lead to much confusion at the time because there were situations when killing them was merited. But because of that rule, gangs were similarly rather safe to carry out nonviolent gang business, so they could walk around and still be safe. 

Now that rule no longer exists. And gang members are free to kill or be killed. And I see gang members (before my recent change), I'd see many gangers not wear the uniform at all to hide from "gang persecution" because they had no reason to wear the uniform except for gimmick or RP purposes. 

Forcing gang members to wear their uniform puts them in danger ALL the time whenever they are not with their gang. Even if they are with their gang things can easily turn on them and they're obviously marked and easy to be killed by anyone.

But I think that gang members should wear their uniform, to that end, they should get some actual gameplay benefit to doing so. Something tangible. Regarding wearing both pieces of the uniform, I felt that was most fair for all involved. If it only required one piece, than gangers could be similarly stealthy by wearing a spacesuit over their jumpsuit and you'd only know by examining them.

And as for why I chose stamina and health buffs over armor, it just made a bit more sense logically, gameplay wise, and was simplest technically. There are many options for gang uniforms, but they are all jumpsuit slot items, which typically do not have any substantial armor. Plus, it's really the head slot item that gives people away as gang members because they're more visible. I don't think that giving stamina is just a straight debuff to security. It affects all types of combat, not just stun weapons; I think adding more stamina in this way increases the quality of fights because it takes longer for gangers to get knocked down for good. Plus, it's not an insane amount. A gang member on their own is still at a disadvantage to a security officer who has his equipment, only when a gang member has also bought a decent gang item or two are they closer in terms of danger.

[Sundance]

A lot to digest there Kyle and I agree with a lot (but not all) of your points. I just sense it may not pan out as you might expect and would suggest reviewing this as gang gets more developed over time. 

Particularly:

Forcing gang members to wear their uniform puts them in danger ALL the time whenever they are not with their gang. Even if they are with their gang things can easily turn on them and they're obviously marked and easy to be killed by anyone.

This is where we disagree the most. Being in a gang by virtue of the fact that it is a gang should be dangerous and you should watch your back, both from disgruntled civilians, salty vigilantes, gung-ho security and of course, other gangs. You need to stay together as a gang, it's in the name. You should not be given free reign to waltz over the station (on your own accord) and commit your crimes, it's really not what the mode should be about. 

If you're killed by anyone - so what? I would avoid security killing them as that's really against the grain of what security should do (rather aim to mitigate the the loss of civilian life and blacklist the gangs that do this and/or damage the station). 
The killing of a gang member on the other hand, by staying together in turn should give other gang members names of who to kill and in create their own blacklists or hits. This in turn would perpetuate a cycle of revenge killings which while is shitty IRL - is actually pretty neato for this mode.

KikiMofo: Personally I don't see gang mode as Gangs vs Security. I see it as Gangs vs Gangs and sometimes if there is sec that round they get caught up in the middle of it.

Yeah I kind of clarified this in my previous paragraph, less to do with security's life being harder, and more to do with the fact this will create a knock on effect of security not being able to mitigate the damage done by gangs to your average chef who just wants to grill a sandwich.

Again, it's by the numbers. 1 stun resistant chump really aint going give much hassle here. But we're really not talking about 1 person when we're talking about gangs, are we?

[phyvo]

Sundance

Forcing gang members to wear their uniform puts them in danger ALL the time whenever they are not with their gang. Even if they are with their gang things can easily turn on them and they're obviously marked and easy to be killed by anyone.

This is where we disagree the most. Being in a gang by virtue of the fact that it is a gang should be dangerous and you should watch your back, both from disgruntled civilians, salty vigilantes, gung-ho security and of course, other gangs. You need to stay together as a gang, it's in the name. You should not be given free reign to waltz over the station (on your own accord) and commit your crimes, it's really not what the mode should be about. 

If you're killed by anyone - so what? I would avoid security killing them as that's really against the grain of what security should do (rather aim to mitigate the the loss of civilian life and blacklist the gangs that do this and/or damage the station). 
The killing of a gang member on the other hand, by staying together in turn should give other gang members names of who to kill and in create their own blacklists or hits. This in turn would perpetuate a cycle of revenge killings which while is shitty IRL - is actually pretty neato for this mode.

I think Kyle has found a fairly decent middle ground. One of the problems I've had with gang, even the previous iteration, is that sometimes security goes nuts as far as valid hunting goes, and when you're the target gang it feels pretty crappy. Now that gang members are more visible and get actual weapons I think security gets a lot more scared and (appropriately for dudes with guns and katanas) reacts more harshly. Stuff like bad locker placement gets punished really hard. In the one round I've gotten to play on new gang my gang was the most visible: owl suits/masks with a locker in the barber shop. We were intensely persecuted and murdered by the Captain and HoP, who printed e-guns. We had restricted our murdering to enemy gang members but being known antags was reason enough for validhunting. Being targeted by both rivals and sec is very rough. Laws that make gang members non-human seem like they'll be more common since they're definitely more enforceable. So I think gang members need the option to go underground. The locker itself ensures that gangs can never be fully invisible unless they forfeit the mode and their equipment.

[Mouse]

The aged hipster clothes really should not be a chooseable option for gang jumpsuit. Picked them just to see what the hell "dawson" was and whoops, I have a jumpsuit that changes my name and gives me permanent bad mutations and can't be removed. Good fucking luck convincing anyone to join my gang now!

I mean, I know not to pick it now but it's not even the interesting kind of newbie trap.

[Urlance Woolsbane]

I've come to the conclusion that Gangs suffers from a lack of definite end-conditions. I think making Gang leaders like Rev heads, in that their deaths ends the round, would be a step in the right direction. I know the idea is that Gangs is less intense than other modes, but it's generally taken as a license for chaos.

[MagicStudiosGuy]

As someone who mainly plays security, the new gang is not about gang v gang, its about gangs v security. Especially joining late join, you will die within 10 minutes. Its made me play much less, and yet, somehow, eveytime i do it turns out to be gang.

[Skornzy]

As someone who mainly plays security, the new gang is not about gang v gang, its about gangs v security. Especially joining late join, you will die within 10 minutes. Its made me play much less, and yet, somehow, eveytime i do it turns out to be gang.

Yes, attacking sec is part of gang but it's not like the gangs all have a truce til security is dead. You don't need to limit your play time over a rare mode that isn't normally harmful to the station.