Remove hiding under tables from monkeys

[moistgrandmas42]

I definitely don't want to nerf monkeys into uselessness either Mr. Green, but hiding under tables is the equivalent to a super cloak (table disarm, can't be nullified by a flash, doesn't take up an inventory slot, cannot be dropped or removed). While you do concede monkeys can be tasered, it's still incredibly difficult to pull them out due to the inability to point blank monkeys effectively. Once they're downed, you then have to pixel hunt or use the context menu which is extremely limiting considering the max the taser downs for with non-point blank attacks is 3s or so iirc where the monkey can just walk backwards back underneath it if they pull off the pull.

While monkeys need some sort of rework, I still think the original would be the simplest solution for the admins to code while still giving monkeys a unique niche of being able to cross through inaccessible terrain. You even admit that you try to stay on top of tables as a sec monkey so you obviously recognize how unfair hiding under tables can be.

[Sick Ness Monster]

I too wanna just cut back in briefly to say I have no problems with how Mr Green operates specifically, he's a very good example of a monkey player who isn't doing it to be a shitter

[Mr. Green]

First of all, thanks to all the people that have mentioned me as a possitive example of a monkey player, it's really appreciated. If there are some specific bad apples out there that are ruining monkeys perhaps it would be worth bringing that to the attention of the admins. It could also be a good idea to make them aware of this thread maybe. If any monkey players are reading this, i'd like to ask you to please read my previous post and try to use some common sense as to when it is appropriate to use the abilities monkeys get, since its obvious that currently some people are having their fun ruined by monkeys, and this in turn ruins playing as a monkey.

I definitely don't want to nerf monkeys into uselessness either Mr. Green, but hiding under tables is the equivalent to a super cloak (table disarm, can't be nullified by a flash, doesn't take up an inventory slot, cannot be dropped or removed). While you do concede monkeys can be tasered, it's still incredibly difficult to pull them out due to the inability to point blank monkeys effectively. Once they're downed, you then have to pixel hunt or use the context menu which is extremely limiting considering the max the taser downs for with non-point blank attacks is 3s or so iirc where the monkey can just walk backwards back underneath it if they pull off the pull.

While monkeys need some sort of rework, I still think the original would be the simplest solution for the admins to code while still giving monkeys a unique niche of being able to cross through inaccessible terrain. You even admit that you try to stay on top of tables as a sec monkey so you obviously recognize how unfair hiding under tables can be.

Let me first say that i actually appreciate you starting this discussion since it seems rather obvious by the amount of reactions that it's something that needed to be discussed.

My main concern with simply removing the ability to go under tables altogether is that this might be throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I indeed fully agree that in the context of combat it is unfair. That being said there are some other contexts where i dont think it is unfair.

One main example that hasnt been mentioned yet is the fact that lings come with their own lesser monkey form. Lesser lings being able to hide under tables and stinging people while they are under a table both are intended game mechanics i assume.

I've personnaly also used the ability to hide under tables to save people. When a monkey grabs anyone, including humans, take them under a table and then let them go, they actually stay hidden aswell (which can also lead to funny situations with operating tables). I can recall a specific example where i dragged a person that was stung by a ling away and hid them under a nearby table. I'd argue that having this being part of the game can lead to fun encounters that add to the expierence.

Lastly, there is the RP aspect. I understand that his might not be relevant at all for some people, but i personally think that the ability to hide under tables fits really well with, as Dickles put it, "monkies as cute yet mischievous creatures".

Now am i not coder so i have no idea which of the proposed solutions are realistic, let alone possible, but i really think there is something to be said for not simply removing the ability. Like i said in my previous post, restricting the ability for monkeys to use certain items under tables, adding a way to effectively fight monkeys under tables, or a combination of the two, would remove the unfair aspect of the ability. I personally also can't see any negative side-effects fixing the problem in this way could cause, but again, im not a coder. I am open to hearing any concerns people might have with a fix like this though.

Please keep the suggestions coming, it seems to me that it should be possible to come up with some idea that works for most people.

[Urlance Woolsbane]

Just popping in to say that my desire for monkey-nerfing is in no way borne of antipathy for Mr. Green. In fact, I think he adds a nice bit of color to to proceedings, although I'll grant I don't play Security so it's not as if I've had to stop him.

Also, I've just remembered that on other servers monkeys can't understand normal speech; it's weird that Goon monkeys can understand humans but humans can't understand them.

[Dickles]

Hi Mr. Green, I don't think anyone was talking about you when they talk about "that guy" stuff. I'm not thinking of anyone in particular myself. You're the kind of monkey player I like. I don't want players like you to be punished or anything. I also don't want changeling monkies to be punished either, I rarely see them used often to be honest. 

From reading the posts imo the best way to handle it would make it high risk high reward. An object which anyone can hide under is the bush which I like, it's a good hiding spot unless your sprite is large but if someone sees you they can spam click it and damage/stunlock you pretty hard. I think having the same thing for people specifically HIDING under tables you can slam it and stun/hurt them. Clicking on it empty hand with a harm intent? We already have the lawyer slam but it would be a bit annoying if everyone could do that. A far gentler sound if you don't have the suit I think. 

I wouldn't be against making reinforced tables special and not be able to be crawled under; I don't play HoP but it is super easy for a monkey to hide under his tables and steal his ID from the computer, I've seen it happen a lot. 

There's other objects that monkies can hide under, I'm not sure of the full list but I know surgery tables are one of them. I think tables are the big one though.

[Berrik]

Monkeys should accidentially decapitate themselves if they try to move under a table. Fuck them.

[Berrik]

Seriouspost: monkeys need to be made at least as slow as people. Currently they are much much faster, which is another reason they are incredibly obnoxious to fight.

[Mr. Green]

Actually, allthough monkeys currently have slightly more stamina, as far as i know this doesn't translate into them actually being faster. Walking, running and sprinting are exactly the same speed as humans in my experience.

[moistgrandmas42]

Yeah, they move at the same speed as humans. They might look a little bit faster because of their smaller sprite, but they're not.

[UrsulaMejor]

Actually, allthough monkeys currently have slightly more stamina, as far as i know this doesn't translate into them actually being faster. Walking, running and sprinting are exactly the same speed as humans in my experience.

They have slightly less, not more, stamina, iirc

[Technature]

I think I know the issue.

You can use the shift button to sprint, which consumes some of your stamina. This is not exclusive to monkeys.

[Mouse]

Monkeys really should not be able to carry standing humans over tables. We just had someone spend five minutes on the bridge table with a human shield, lasering people with an egun. The hell are you supposed to do there? Can't tase them. Can't disarm them. It's dull.

[Drago156]

Monkeys really should not be able to carry standing humans over tables. We just had someone spend five minutes on the bridge table with a human shield, lasering people with an egun. The hell are you supposed to do there? Can't tase them. Can't disarm them. It's dull.

Gas or bomb them and be done?

In all seriousness, I think tables in general probably need a major rework in and of themselves.

[Sundance]

Monkeys really should not be able to carry standing humans over tables. We just had someone spend five minutes on the bridge table with a human shield, lasering people with an egun. The hell are you supposed to do there? Can't tase them. Can't disarm them. It's dull.

Gas or bomb them and be done?

In all seriousness, I think tables in general probably need a major rework in and of themselves.

Cover fire/flip table mechanics like TG, but done in our own whacky way would be good. Objects placed on the table flipped would fire dramatically at targets, and would make fire fights a lot more interesting.

I do feel tables as a "barrier" to places is really redundant at this stage in the game and just encourages people to break tables. The whole argument that it acts as a barrier for secure areas (i.e HoP's Desk) is weak, when considering many places have those little slidy "windoors" which completely nullify any intruders. We can also get creative if windoors feel cheap! A system similar to Passport control booths in airports where you slide things under a grate and retrieve them could be cool!

This is a massive digression to the original thread I admit, but I do feel changing how tables function is something that could be looked at.

[moistgrandmas42]

Oh god, a monkey with a hostage is practically invulnerable isn't it? That's disgusting. Tables definitely could use some retuning.