Remove hiding under tables from monkeys

[Dickles]

I think it would be a good change. Monkies are really strong, and it's really hard to fight one that's hiding under stuff. Can't even try to click them with a weapon or you'll just put it onto the table.

I wouldn't be against a monkey overhaul to be honest; I like monkies as cute yet mischievous creatures, but there's a lot of things currently that make them very strong combatants.

[Berrik]

For what it's worth, monkeys on other codebases tend to have poor manual dexterity and limited mental faculties. Being turned into one is generally a very bad thing; you can't function remotely normally, it's not just a cute little quirk or minor handicap. The other difference is that you can't wear most outfits, although I prefer Goon on this point.

I like the idea of nerfing monkey's ability to do most human things because they're dumb monkeys.

[OMJ]

For what it's worth, monkeys on other codebases tend to have poor manual dexterity and limited mental faculties. Being turned into one is generally a very bad thing; you can't function remotely normally, it's not just a cute little quirk or minor handicap. The other difference is that you can't wear most outfits, although I prefer Goon on this point.

I like the idea of nerfing monkey's ability to do most human things because they're dumb monkeys.

Monkeys used to not be able to wear jumpsuits/belts. There was no reason to give them this functionality. Now monkey mains (outside of Mr. Green) abuse this + the added functionality & mobility to be assholes.

Giving monkeys the ability to wear equipment was the worst change made in a while.

[Flaborized]

I don't like the hiding under tables mechanic, it's really janky and it's frustrating to deal with because you can't see them (obviously) but even if you know where they are, it's difficult to attack them from there since you have to use the right click menu to drag them out (which sucks). I think it'd be good if you could click on the table to yank the monkey out and stun them, or maybe if doing an attack or interacting with stuff while under a table made you pop up out of it (sort of like cloak) so you couldn't beat someone to death AND be protected by a table at the same time.

IMO monkeys should be substantially worse than humans in combat but with some niche advantages. Because the main drawback is being less able to communicate, the main advantage shouldn't be "very good at fighting" because people who play monkey like this don't really care about communication. Monkey max stamina was reduced to 150 instead of 200 a while ago, but I don't think that's very noticeable because it doesn't hit any big thresholds. (you're still stunned in two baton hits instead of one for example)

I think it'd be worthwhile to reduce this a bit more to actually break some thresholds and make monkeys significantly worse off in a regular fight, or maybe adjust their health value to be lower or something like that. This way it'd go from "non-communicative gene that people can abuse to be very good at fighting" to "niche gene that's overall pretty bad but could be used to good effect + you get to be a monkey which can be silly/fun". My main concern is NPC monkeys with this, when stamina was reduced last time another monkey was added to the monkey barrel so I think there could be accommodations.  

I don't want monkeys to be unable to wear clothes because we have a bunch of monkey-clothes sprite variants and it'd be a shame to let those go to waste, and NPC monkeys are defined by having funny little suits on. Would suck if Muggles wasn't all dressed up or whatever 

[Zafhset]

Regardless of what changes are done to player monkeys, please do not nerf NPC monkeys - it's silly fun when a monkey gets attacked and it robusts the shit out of its aggressor.

[AleksAdamska]

With regards to what Berrik and Urlance said about monkeys being dumb and bad at holding things on other servers, I think giving them the Clumsy mutation by default would be a relatively fair balancing factor - it leaves them pretty playable but still handicaps their ability to powergame with the benefits they get by being monkeys.

[TheCannonMan]

Might even be a good idea to just make it so monkies can only climb tables by themselves with a small timer as opposed to needing a partner to do so, and are always above tables, this removes the ability for monkey players to zip around like nerds.

[Slacker Magician]

Regardless of what changes are done to player monkeys, please do not nerf NPC monkeys - it's silly fun when a monkey gets attacked and it robusts the shit out of its aggressor.

I think that's the general consensus, right now monkey is straight advantage over humans gameplay wise, with its downsides easily negateable, so it'd leave the aggressive AI with punches when you mob one of em, since the problem really isnt with their statblock, more the passive ability benefits

[moistgrandmas42]

I'm not opposed to a monkey remake, but I at the very least really want to actually be able to click them in combat instead of having the equivalent of a super cloak that forces you to pixel hunt or use the context menu. At least with cloak you can just area flash to reveal them.

[Salami Sam]

Might even be a good idea to just make it so monkies can only climb tables by themselves with a small timer as opposed to needing a partner to do so, and are always above tables, this removes the ability for monkey players to zip around like nerds.

This seems like a winning solution. I'd like to see monkeys retain the ability to scramble around tables, without it being too over-powered. Note that all critter players can hide under tables though.

[Technature]

This brings up the question about other things, like the Changeling limbs.

A smart Hand spider will abuse the ever loving shit out of tables for the same reasons monkeys do, while they're significantly easier to kill (Pro Wrastlers need not fear the spider hand that dares to show itself). Is their disability enough of a handicap in comparison to their weakness, and if so is it possible to implement something similar to monkeys?

Nothing like "Instant death body slam" of course. Hand limbs can easily come back while monkeys can't after all.

[MagicStudiosGuy]

Why not just let monkeys go on tables, but they walk on it, not under it?

[moistgrandmas42]

That's the original idea MagicStudioGuy. Edited the original post for clarity.

[Lady Birb]

I'm a fan of "Make them go over tables instead of under"

[Drago156]

As a person who has seen this go on for 3 years, I gotta agree with this, I can't recount the number times I've seen a test subject monkey absolutely griefing with this much less antag monkeys. It is equally annoying to try and combat or counter, 100% requiring stunning the person unconscious in order to pull them out of the table safely.

I am, however, in favor of them retaining the ability to go over tables, and while I see some of the reason why monkeys had the under table ability, it really just isn't balanced at this state.