Antag Tokens should respect your prefs

[TheMaskedMan2]

Honestly, arguably already a non-issue. Tokens are already a rare privilege for a round interrupted for various reasons, but I feel like it's still worth a suggestion just to be discussed. For example I really don't enjoy certain antag types like traitor, but I suppose that's a personal problem.

Idea 1: When you use a token, it should only actually make you an antag if the gamemode is compatible with your preferences. Otherwise your just a normal crew member.

The Problem: People could argurably meta to find out what the gamemode is, for example if they used their token on Traitor only but didn't get antag, they know for a fact that there are no traitors this round.

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Idea 2: Using a token will make you one of your preferred antags regardless of the gamemode.

The Problem: Gamemodes might as well not exist then and it could severely impact the balance of the round by essentially turning it into mixed, and everyone able to choose what they want could just be OP.

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Idea 3: Don't do anything and suck up that you might not get the antag you want.

(Realistically probably the best option though I felt it was still worth discussing.)

[kyle2143]

This is something that has been discussed among the administration more than once and it's tricky to get it right. I think we settled on that doing anything different from the way it is done now would give the user of the Antag Token meta-information about the round on round start (because jerks that can game the system will). You already list out that reason for one of your suggestions, but here I'll briefly break down how the two ideas your suggest would conflict with this in a bit more detail for others.

Idea #1: If a player elect to spend an antag token but they DON'T get selected and roll a normal crew member. They will know instantly that the current round is a roundtype that is not on their preferences. They could put only nuke-ops or blob on their list, which are rather rare keep putting up the same antag token so it won't spend or they get know the roundtype before anyone else.

Idea #2: This one solves the meta info, but adds a problem that's even larger. It could work if the server was always set to mixed, but that would mean we could never play nuke ops or revolution without significant rewrites to a lot of the game mode and antagonist handlings. And if we didn't make that server change, it would essentially low antag token spenders to decide the round type.

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At the moment, I don't think there's a ready solution to ensure that token users will be able to play their favorite antag type, but it is worth discussing that's sure, there could be an overlooked answer in there.

[TheMaskedMan2]

Yeah, thanks for the reasonable response, while the solution at first seems rather simple people quickly pointed out some of the problems with it. I figured even so that the suggestion was worth putting up because maybe someone will have a better idea.

Argurably the current method still bothers me simply because to me prefs are rather important, and I don't like the idea of going against what people enjoy, but it's probably a meaningful sacrifice.

Maybe somebody will have another idea without a major problem, but it's probably too much work.

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Slightly Related Idea: This discussion reminded me of something, since random event opt-in antags don't respect your prefs anymore, I think the prompt to join into it should tell you what the antag is before hand.

Example: Do you want to be a random event Blob/Wizard/Etc instead of just "antagonist"

I don't think that would change much in the way of meta since even if ghosts don't get the role they'll just observe around and find out who it is anyways, and I feel like people should know what they're getting into.

[Triacontakai]

Couldn't we make it so that the antag token actually governs the round type? I think they're rare enough where that wouldn't have a huge effect.
Only issue is if two people use a token with completely different prefs on the same round, but I think since it's such a rare case it wouldn't be a big deal to just take the hit and refund the antag token for the person who didn't get their pick.

EDIT: just realized that's what you mentioned near the end of your reply, Kyle, but as I mentioned I don't think it's too big a deal that antag tokens would be able to change the gamemode since they should be rather rare.

[KikiMofo]

Antag tokens are suppose to be an apology for a ruined antag round but when you use an antag token and can't pick what you want with it and then get something that you ABSOLUTELY HATE(in my case Blob) its less an apology and more of a punishment. Antag tokens are rare enough that what does it matter if one round that someone uses a token they get to pick what they want to be? The only downside I would see is if someone uses an antag token on a round that has syndies. I have a bunch of antag tokens saved up but Im too scared to use them just in case I get like gang leader or blob and I really don't want that. Or I use it and it ends up being a syndie round and thats just a waste of token.
Bottom line is that antag tokens are worse than just getting a normal antag round and thats not good.

[UrsulaMejor]

the only antagonists I have enabled are syndie and blob.

this means that the antag token I have was recompense for a lost blob round.

the chance of me getting another one with that are practically nil.

basically, the token is worthless because my only recompense for losing a round as my favorite role is to be something I hate. at least let me redeem it for spacebux or something idk.

[robertGN]

I agree, I hate the current system. I have an extremely strong dislike of playing big rampage-based antagonists like Blob or syndie ops. I don't want to use up my hard-to-get currency to potentially get a round that I will not enjoy in the slightest and will likely put me off of playing SS13 for a few days. Because of this, I have also stockpiled tokens instead of using them to avoid awful rounds.

I agree with Urs here, if we can't get the ability to influence the antag we get, please consider giving us an alternative way to utilize our antag tokens.

[Frank_Stein]

How about a specific round type geared towards spending antag tokens? Hyper Turbo Mixed: Champion Edition

[Haprenti]

It's a compensation not a full refund, if you only like to play rarer antag types I'd say tough luck.
On the other hand if you dislike being blob or nuke you could maybe try adminhelping to see if someone could replace you, getting back your token but being locked out of the round ? That sounds manageable. But if no admins are present, tough luck. Could try using one only when an admin is present.
It's not something you're supposed to get often, so it doesn't amount to a lot of antag rounds you'll potentially lose and be upset about anyway, unless you're lucky/unlucky.
The token made you lose the ability to use antag preference for 1 antag round, but gives you the ability to chose the moment you're one. Seems fair enough.

[Dauntasa]

failure to become the kind of antagonist you want due to the round type being wrong should refund the token and then kick you into observing so you are unable to use that as metainfo

alternatively it shouldn't because who the fuck is actually going to use their antag tokens just to try know early that it's not a blob round, at the risk of it being a blob round and them having to play as a stupid blob, and also requiring them to have all their antag roles turned off. Like I know that you guys want to avoid any possibility for metainfo but really, absolutely no one is going to do that.

[KikiMofo]

Im cool with dauntasas idea. If your token doesn't give you something you want you can press a refund token button and it just kicks you into observer and gives the token back. If people are going to use observer to metagame then we have a much bigger problem then just tokens.

[aft2001]

Isn't it metagaming to tell people what the round type is based on information not gained directly in-game? Including deductions based on antag token manipulation? Just make it against the rules to tell people what the gamemode is if you know what the round type is before the round even starts.

[OMJ]

what if the antag token copied the user’s current antag preferences when initially issued? would prevent gaming the system

[Joefesok]

what if you had an option for spending a token like you do now, for a completely random antag in the current round, or spending it to pre-determine the next round type in favor of your token and antag preferences? to prevent metagaming re: next round, the next round type is kept anonymous and is determined on a first-come first-serve basis, with subsequent usage not being allowed since the round is already determined. would mean that you might have to wait a few rounds to use your tokens in this way but i think it'd be a good framework to let people get the specific antag they want.

[TheMaskedMan2]

I like Dauntasa's idea.

While we could argue if the meta is really that big of a deal, I feel like when you use an antag token, it should respect your prefs - BUT, if the round type is not the round type in favor of you, you are forced to observe that round.

Obviously make this clear in the pop-up that asks you if you want to use it. While yes it would slightly suck to not be able to play, but I would rather observe than essentially be punished into an antag I really dislike. This let's people get what their prefs allow and prevents meta that round.

If you don't care what antag you get and just want to play you can turn them all on.

+1