[ANTAGONIST] Make Krampus 3 Unpoppable!

[locusts]

Make it so that you can pop Krampus, but it immediately respawns somewhere else on the ship but 20% smaller. See how tiny Krampus can get!

I'm not sure why the debate in this thread has continued when I have already provided the literal perfect solution.

[Superlagg]

Solution: krampus is poppable, but only by spacemas elves.

[YoukCat]

Make it so that you can pop Krampus, but it immediately respawns somewhere else on the ship but 20% smaller. See how tiny Krampus can get!

I'm not sure why the debate in this thread has continued when I have already provided the literal perfect solution.

I support this 100%

[Frank_Stein]

Make it so that you can pop Krampus, but it immediately respawns somewhere else on the ship but 20% smaller. See how tiny Krampus can get!

I'm not sure why the debate in this thread has continued when I have already provided the literal perfect solution.

I support this 100%

Nah, it should make them 20% bigger and louder

[NateTheSquid]

did not read literally any of the posts here, fuck your arguments.

What a fantastic thing to read, surely expressing yourself like this will get people to see your point of view.

Krampus is not supposed to be good, it's supposed to be a thing you DON'T want to become since it became a meatcube, because people were utter shit with the original Krampus, and, oh boy, guess what! They were awful with the new Krampus as well too. Being unkillable on top of that just made it possible to take someone out of the round with no real way to stop it, and I fail to see how that's fun except maybe the first few times.

then why the fuck is it opt in? you can just say no when the thing pops up?

edit: theres also plenty of ways to balance out unkillable krampus a bit, as stated by me and others such as: making him unable to enter cloning, making him poppable, but popping teleports him to the shuttle or somewhere on station, making him lose power as christmas cheer goes up, making santa more common

[Huff H Law]

You guys are really bad at arguing your point. Can someone explain to me in as much detail as they want to why they want a gimmick that was made on a whim with the purpose of creating fun and having some sort of new thing for holiday spice become a constant presence for every holiday period from now on?

I really do not understand - mainly from what I've skimmed from the posts in this thread from the people who seem to want want to keep krampus. Their reason being, well, after reading the posts it genuinely seems like the main argument behind wanting Krampus to remain is "He's been here for the last year." As I read the posts I don't recall ever seeing a single poster on the side of Krampus remaining an unkillable thing actually offer any legitimate reasons why - they seemed to think it was already obvious why and just wanted to offer suggestions on how to do it.

That's really not good enough, sorry. If the people that really like Krampus could please post again, explaining what they like about Krampus, and why they think the game is better with Krampus in it, they are welcome to do so. Maybe if they have a convincing argument something would change - but given that mainly the reason behind wanting no change to happen here is fueled by some kind of anger, especially from Nate - so maybe there isn't actually any convincing argument to be had?

Please do tell in this thread, there's always next year after all, perhaps Krampus can come back?

[YoukCat]

I can try and give reasons in a more logical and orderly fashion instead of a "I WANT KRAMPUS BACK" fashion.

1. We need a penalty for reaching 0 Christmas Cheer.
If there is a good benefit for reaching 100 Christmas Cheer, there should be a bad thing that happens when you reach 0 Christmas Cheer. Along with that, it gives more reason to fight back against the Grinch antagonist, and gives a reward for reaching 0 Christmas Cheer. The rest of my reasons will be why Krampus should be the 0 Christmas Cheer Penalty.

2. Krampus is more fun to play as than the other options, but is also weak enough/reproducable enough (just become a meatcube yourself) that you can trust players not to kill things and then commit suicide for it.
People that do kill things and commit suicide for it are clearly not the brightest, considering they can just do a bit of chem work to become a meatcube. Along with that, being Krampus is another entertaining thing for the Dead to be, considering the Dead are outted from the game until next round anyway.

3. Krampus is more fun for others, since it's gimmicky and doesn't have ways to seriously end your game.
Krampus is entertaining for others as well. I've never been saddened by a Krampus Meatcube. Others have been saddened by them, however that is likely because Krampus is supposed to be a punishment to people for letting Christmas Cheer get to 0. It's a fairly kind punishment, since it doesn't result in that much death and instead results in a farty, immortal meatcube.

4. Krampus is still a punishment for letting Christmas Cheer get to 0, and can easily be destroyed once Christmas Cheer gets back to 100.
Santa literally has a button that kills Krampus if I'm correct. If you let Christmas Cheer get to 0, you shouldn't be given a pat on the back, you should have to deal with a little bit of sadness.

5. Krampus is Tradition.
Krampus is one of the most memorable (and cutest) things in SS13 Spacemas. It's supposed to be the Manifestation of Grief, not an easily poppable, forgettable creature. As Frank puts, it's a symbol for the bizarre humor and grief that people inflict on each other condensed into a small fleshy hate cube. Removing Krampus would take much of the soul of Goonstation Spacemas.

[Nnystyxx]

I'll be entirely honest:
- I had no idea Spacemas Cheer did anything
- I had no idea Krampus was a punishment for it going low
- I had no idea Santa was supposed to kill him

That influenced some of my anger but also fuck fuck fuck ahhhh!!!

[Frank_Stein]

You guys are really bad at arguing your point. Can someone explain to me in as much detail as they want to why they want a gimmick that was made on a whim with the purpose of creating fun and having some sort of new thing for holiday spice become a constant presence for every holiday period from now on?

I really do not understand - mainly from what I've skimmed from the posts in this thread from the people who seem to want want to keep krampus. Their reason being, well, after reading the posts it genuinely seems like the main argument behind wanting Krampus to remain is "He's been here for the last year." As I read the posts I don't recall ever seeing a single poster on the side of Krampus remaining an unkillable thing actually offer any legitimate reasons why - they seemed to think it was already obvious why and just wanted to offer suggestions on how to do it.

That's really not good enough, sorry. If the people that really like Krampus could please post again, explaining what they like about Krampus, and why they think the game is better with Krampus in it, they are welcome to do so. Maybe if they have a convincing argument something would change - but given that mainly the reason behind wanting no change to happen here is fueled by some kind of anger, especially from Nate - so maybe there isn't actually any convincing argument to be had?

Please do tell in this thread, there's always next year after all, perhaps Krampus can come back?

Because when you do something long enough, it becomes a tradition. Traditions are a part of a shared culture and identity. Krampus, in my mind, has become a part of the Goonstation experience. It's something that reminds you that you're home.

Is Krampus annoying? Yes. Not all traditions are positive, but that doesn't mean they don't have value. Krampus serves as a yearly symbol of the kind of bizarre humor of the server is known for, and is a manifestation of all the grief that people inflict on each other condensed into a fleshy hate cube.

 It's antics are condemnable, but it serves as a dark mirror into the nature of the players and is a reminder that we should all treat each other with more respect. There's no way to fight Krampus at it's own game. You can't out grief the manifestation of grief. You can only beat it by being kind, and helping your fellow spaceman. 

It's a powerful symbol, and by changing it you diminish the message. By removing it, you remove some of the soul from Goonstation.

[YoukCat]

I'm adding part of what Frank just said to my main list. I'll also add the main list to the original post so that people can look at it easier.

[NateTheSquid]

I can try and give reasons in a more logical and orderly fashion instead of a "I WANT KRAMPUS BACK" fashion.

1. We need a penalty for reaching 0 Christmas Cheer.
If there is a good benefit for reaching 100 Christmas Cheer, there should be a bad thing that happens when you reach 0 Christmas Cheer. Along with that, it gives more reason to fight back against the Grinch antagonist, and gives a reward for reaching 0 Christmas Cheer. The rest of my reasons will be why Krampus should be the 0 Christmas Cheer Penalty.

2. Krampus is more fun to play as than the other options, but is also weak enough/reproducable enough (just become a meatcube yourself) that you can trust players not to kill things and then commit suicide for it.
People that do kill things and commit suicide for it are clearly not the brightest, considering they can just do a bit of chem work to become a meatcube. Along with that, being Krampus is another entertaining thing for the Dead to be, considering the Dead are outted from the game until next round anyway.

3. Krampus is more fun for others, since it's gimmicky and doesn't have ways to seriously end your game.
Krampus is entertaining for others as well. I've never been saddened by a Krampus Meatcube. Others have been saddened by them, however that is likely because Krampus is supposed to be a punishment to people for letting Christmas Cheer get to 0. It's a fairly kind punishment, since it doesn't result in that much death and instead results in a farty, immortal meatcube.

4. Krampus is still a punishment for letting Christmas Cheer get to 0, and can easily be destroyed once Christmas Cheer gets back to 100.
Santa literally has a button that kills Krampus if I'm correct. If you let Christmas Cheer get to 0, you shouldn't be given a pat on the back, you should have to deal with a little bit of sadness.

5. Krampus is Tradition.
Krampus is one of the most memorable (and cutest) things in SS13 Spacemas. It's supposed to be the Manifestation of Grief, not an easily poppable, forgettable creature.  As Frank puts, it's a symbol for the bizarre humor and grief that people inflict on each other condensed into a small fleshy hate cube. Removing Krampus would take much of the soul of Goonstation Spacemas.

This is literally all of the points I was going to raise. The change to make him killable was over the top at best, and kneejerky at worst. Krampus is one of the three spacemas figures, however the grinch is pretty uncommon. Krampus 2.0 was designed to do exactly what people use him for, and now people are mad about him being used as he was intended. I'm not talking about blocking cloning or whatever, that's just shitty, but there's ways to stop him from being able to do that without turning him into a useless, standard, meatcube.

You can be a meatcube any time of year. You can't be an unkillable, anti-spacemas meatcube all year.

[Huff H Law]

This is literally all of the points I was going to raise. The change to make him killable was over the top at best, and kneejerky at worst.

You're still acting really mean, and I don't actually want to read your posts. You're still implying the people that changed this are mad and butthurt and idiots. You should stop arguing - you're really making your side look bad.

I can try and give reasons in a more logical and orderly fashion instead of a "I WANT KRAMPUS BACK" fashion.

1. We need a penalty for reaching 0 Christmas Cheer.
If there is a good benefit for reaching 100 Christmas Cheer, there should be a bad thing that happens when you reach 0 Christmas Cheer. Along with that, it gives more reason to fight back against the Grinch antagonist, and gives a reward for reaching 0 Christmas Cheer. The rest of my reasons will be why Krampus should be the 0 Christmas Cheer Penalty.

2. Krampus is more fun to play as than the other options, but is also weak enough/reproducable enough (just become a meatcube yourself) that you can trust players not to kill things and then commit suicide for it.
People that do kill things and commit suicide for it are clearly not the brightest, considering they can just do a bit of chem work to become a meatcube. Along with that, being Krampus is another entertaining thing for the Dead to be, considering the Dead are outted from the game until next round anyway.

3. Krampus is more fun for others, since it's gimmicky and doesn't have ways to seriously end your game.
Krampus is entertaining for others as well. I've never been saddened by a Krampus Meatcube. Others have been saddened by them, however that is likely because Krampus is supposed to be a punishment to people for letting Christmas Cheer get to 0. It's a fairly kind punishment, since it doesn't result in that much death and instead results in a farty, immortal meatcube.

4. Krampus is still a punishment for letting Christmas Cheer get to 0, and can easily be destroyed once Christmas Cheer gets back to 100.
Santa literally has a button that kills Krampus if I'm correct. If you let Christmas Cheer get to 0, you shouldn't be given a pat on the back, you should have to deal with a little bit of sadness.

5. Krampus is Tradition.
Krampus is one of the most memorable (and cutest) things in SS13 Spacemas. It's supposed to be the Manifestation of Grief, not an easily poppable, forgettable creature.  As Frank puts, it's a symbol for the bizarre humor and grief that people inflict on each other condensed into a small fleshy hate cube. Removing Krampus would take much of the soul of Goonstation Spacemas.

Thank you for your response. I mean, I disagree with the 5th point especially: there is no tradition in the game, sorry that the lack of change in this implied that Krampus was anything else than a temporary gimmick. Things come and go in this game, it's part of the charm, in my opinion, but that's just my opinion.

Anyway the first two are still fulfilled - but it was sort of a bad implementation since I don't think a lot of people knew about the christmas cheer thing - which is why I'm also skeptical about it being a tradition. Did you guys who like it tell people about the christmas cheer mechanic and what happens at 0% and what happens at 100% and how you raise it and what Santa does, by the way? And besides, Krampus is still annoying, probably, now that he's poppable, he's just not unstoppable now, and it's a easy fix to implement because it was really ruining the game. I know this is a less than perfect answer but you have to make some sacrifices as to what you're going to spend your effort on when coding a game as a hobby, and I don't think a lot of people want to spend effort on a broken gimmick that was added in on a whim.

The third is the main reason why Krampus has been changed: it turns out he can kill lots of people, it turns out he can kill a lot of people with impunity and easily. Sure this could be fixed, I guess, in various complicated ways, but as I said in the previous paragraph - there's things coders want to deal with and things they don't.

Not saying they never will go back to Krampus (or probably more likely come up with something better), but you have to consider the annoyance of seeing Krampus constantly kill people and fuck their rounds up while his victims could do nothing and then in addition to that after posting in a thread saying what your reasons were to just get insulted by someone like Nate or have someone who said he doesn't even play the game that often anymore like Sundance to say this was a bad change for reasons he never actually mentions. The first is going to want you to remove this feature. The second is definitely not going to change your mind.

I mean, I'm glad you actually put in the effort to explain why you think Krampus should stay as he was - but it seems like your wishes are still fulfilled, albeit Krampus is no longer the nightmare factory he was, just a minor annoyance now. I can see why you would miss things as they were, it does seem like a fun idea thinking on it - but there were numerous problems that coders just currently don't have the will to fix. I mean, it's Christmas time now, right? Happy holidays.

edit: Oh yeah and Frank - I think the soul of goonstation is more diminished by keeping it instead of replacing it with something equally insane.

[Xeram]

Counterpoints:

1. Christmas cheer does not exist solely during rounds containing a Grinch, it exists all the time whether the antagonists are on mass murder spree or sneaking around. You fight against the Grinch because a good portion of him reducing Christmas cheer is going to consist of murdering people, forcing them to eat poisoned food then murdering them, and probably blowing up the spacemas tree and murdering everyone nearby.

2. Things we allow the Dead to be easily: Ghosts, Inside changeling hiveminds, ghost critters, ghost drones, VR ghosts, Krampus. All these things except one are relatively harmless and have minimal impact on the round (unless someone in a ling hivemind is put in control of something or a ghost drone has gone full shitter). Krampus is allowed completely free, unrestricted, antagonistic interaction with the crew. This allows a less than insignificant effect on the round. If krampus exists, the conditions for him to make people dead also most likely exist.

3. Krampus stops being entertaining about 5 seconds after he decides you're next. Things Krampus can do to you: Drag you into dangers that will very quickly kill you, but not Krampus. Trap you and strip you completely naked in a cold depressurized hallway. PODS. Prevent you from completing literally anything if he decides he's going to stick around and push you. Open gas canisters in hallways. The list goes on. Then there's things you could previously do to Krampus: Fucking nothing. It's like if you had Lord Doome running around with his clause except he always had invincibility on. It's about as fucking interactive or fun to play as Solitaire. If Krampus pushes you into a corner, you might as well leave the game and fucking play Solitaire, because you're not going anywhere.

4. Positive Feedback Loop. Both directions. Cheer hits 0. Krampus Spawns. Poor station conditions to cause 0 cheer + Krampus now helping murder everyone with grief causes station to remain at 0. Cheer hits 100. Santa spawns. Santa prevents people from dying and sends food and presents everywhere. Cheer stays at 100. Even when major disruptions are applied to the loop, cheer going from 0 to the 100 needed to get santa never happens because its far harder to raise cheer to that level than to drop it from 100 to 0, since killing Santa provides such a massive drop.

5. https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tool...-Tradition
Tradition doesn't make it right. Tradition doesn't make it fun. Krampus is barely around and insignificantly memorable. We do not wish we had Krampus past Christmas time. We don't even remember it enough to complain past the time of year he's around. He's already a completely forgettable creature. Removing Krampus would not take anything out of Spacemas.

6. Anything that is allowed to kill you and is invincible or nearly so (eg: Wraith, Old Cloakers) is consistently awful for literally everyone except the person controlling the antagonist. We changed how the cloaking device works. People have pushed for changes to Wraith to make it less of a tedious salt generation fest (in both senses). Krampus got beat with the anti-shitstick once because people were shit with him. People still managed to be shit. It's time for another beating.

[NateTheSquid]

alright, i'm just going to drop out of this discussion given my presence is clearly not wanted. i'll just leave with this: making krampus a regular meatcube defeats the entire point, and he might as well be removed completely if people are against making him unkillable again

[Huff H Law]

words

Thanks for explaining it in more detail as to why people think it's a bad idea.