(08-17-2017, 07:01 AM)Sundance Wrote: Locker and welder? Great so you want to permabrig people?
Hoot + flash powder? You do know that this was changed so cyborgs are effected by them, because certain players were being powergamey as fuck?
Well obviously it's a temporary thing. Last night, the cyborg team was really damn efficient (including myself) to the point that we were keeping an eye out for a fire bomber. I was lucky enough to see it in action, so I chased the bad guy to the back of the kitchen and bolted him down. Eventually the other cyborg came in and, after a lot of trouble, we managed to lock him in a locker and get him to the brig for security the heads of the station to deal with him.
If anyone's playing securibot, that's pretty much how it should go. If you're permawelding/locking people into lockers and leaving them alone, you deserve to be shot by them when they inevitably flip break out.
Anecdotal evidence shows me that for the most part that borgs that do this use it as an effective method at capturing lings/vampires and dragging them to the crusher. Pleasantly surprised that it was brought to the brig, but this behavior is rare.
Which is ok for the most part, but for a borg to operate in a manner that aids security, you'd want something that actually aids security. Outright gibbing things mostly doesn't help security. Security is not just the murdering / capturing of antagonists.
i never said i leave people in lockers forever. i generally drag them into security and unweld the locker for security to deal with. (always use ID lockable lockers and lock then weld them)
I support the idea brought up earlier in this thread that HoS players should be able to be a Sec-borg. Give them things like Cuffs and an advanced form of taser that downs in one shot, however has 2 minute cooldowns between shots, weak medical kit, an orange jumpsuit fabricator, all of that.
HoS players should generally be trusted with this type of thing, after all.
08-17-2017, 03:28 PM (This post was last modified: 08-17-2017, 03:29 PM by Technature. Edited 2 times in total.)
The only thing I find annoying with borgs that play security (when I'm not an antag) is that most people don't seem to think that they can deny an order when they can (I think correct me if I'm wrong I'd rather it be here than from an admin in game thank you). For example, I got a message from the other cyborg that we could contain him as long as he didn't ask to be let out, while I rationalized that we could use his history of human harm to say "I believe that you will hurt people if I do that, so I'm not going to" (you can still follow it of course, since opening the door doesn't cause IMMEDIATE human harm).
It's kind of funny to take advantage of this as an antag (more than once I was able to tell a Borg to hide in a nearby locker until I left despite it being common knowledge that I was fucking shit up that could cause human harm), but I'm sure it's really annoying to the crew when a cyborg assists a wanted serial killer because they asked it to really nicely.
The above point shows the result of jigging law 1 regarding preventing human harm.
If a secborg cuffs you as he is knowledgeable or under the impression that you are causing harm in the immediate sense, a human can, quite reasonably in fact, to demand the borg to uncuff him.
The borg has 2 options (correct me if I'm wrong here):
- Uncuff the player. Its an order, you are a borg after all. After all, your logic is fallible, so if some crazy mass murderer orders you to uncuff, if you have any doubt that there's no conflict with law 1, law 2 follows suit.
- Keep the player cuffed. Law 2 is still in effect, however keep in mind that a borg may be following orders from an officer or even a HoS or Captain.
Interesting scenarios arise when a Head or Captain is chosen to be arrested.
These are all strong points for a return of a sec module, such as the brobocop. Conflict and strife keeps the game fresh and while it would be a mild strife, they're still robust by virtue of the fact that they are borgs.
(08-17-2017, 03:28 PM)Technature Wrote: The only thing I find annoying with borgs that play security (when I'm not an antag) is that most people don't seem to think that they can deny an order when they can (I think correct me if I'm wrong I'd rather it be here than from an admin in game thank you). For example, I got a message from the other cyborg that we could contain him as long as he didn't ask to be let out, while I rationalized that we could use his history of human harm to say "I believe that you will hurt people if I do that, so I'm not going to" (you can still follow it of course, since opening the door doesn't cause IMMEDIATE human harm).
It's kind of funny to take advantage of this as an antag (more than once I was able to tell a Borg to hide in a nearby locker until I left despite it being common knowledge that I was fucking shit up that could cause human harm), but I'm sure it's really annoying to the crew when a cyborg assists a wanted serial killer because they asked it to really nicely.
I mean, the original point of Asimov laws were that they weren't rock solid and could be subverted many ways, so finding loopholes is a integral part to the AI/Borg experience IMO.
You can use law 1 a lot, but another great thing is the phrasing of law 2 allows anyone with a higher rank to override another order as long as it's law compliant. If you lock a dude up, all you need is a Sec officer or Head to tell you to ignore them and you're fine.
(08-17-2017, 07:01 AM)Sundance Wrote: Hoot + flash powder? You do know that this was changed so cyborgs are effected by them, because certain players were being powergamey as fuck?
I didn't? I had borgs use it on me before I took my break. I guess they were working together or something?
That aside, brobocop is more purseholder than secborg. I don't actually mind something like that. Like I said, I generally think people overreact to the idea of secborgs -- which leads to the main problem I have.
It's the divisiveness it'll generate, and the sheer amount of whining I'll have to hear. If we can somehow combine the least wanted job (sec) with the least wanted mob (borg) so that it can do something that always causes rage (copping silicons) without making a shitstorm, or at least making the shitstorm worth it, then by all means - let's.
The other modules still give a fighting chance though.
You get stunned by a baton, you're not getting up, and if something that doesn't need to not kill you has ammunition as long as it has power, you can kiss your round goodbye right there.
While the other modules could kill a person without much effort, it's still SOME effort. Even if you get the drop on someone, you still have to try.
(08-18-2017, 01:09 AM)Technature Wrote: The other modules still give a fighting chance though.
You get stunned by a baton, you're not getting up, and if something that doesn't need to not kill you has ammunition as long as it has power, you can kiss your round goodbye right there.
While the other modules could kill a person without much effort, it's still SOME effort. Even if you get the drop on someone, you still have to try.
exactly. plus theres plenty of easy ways to stop borgs (sadly, damn traitors sure use them)
The chief concern of people is that if secborgs are easily subverted, very few crewmembers would stand a fighting chance. A valid concern, given that obtaining AI upload access is fairly easy compared to, say, mindslaving an officer. My chief concern, also slightly related, is that if a secborg is acting up/a traitor wants to get them out of the way pre-emptively, the quickest way to do so is to just upload a suicide law or killswitch them all, because it's much easier than actually taking the borgs on in head-to-head combat.
Rather than the secborgs following the standard three laws, they should follow a slightly different three laws, with the upload computer and the related robotics computer located in sec - maybe the armory or something. I'm too tired right now to figure out how they'd be actually worded to prevent abuse, but the key point is that if you want to subvert them or shut them down, you'd have to invade sec to do so, and can do so without touching the rest of the silicons.
To balance it out, there should probably be a limited number of secborg modules, cause I can easily see a zealous MD/roboticist crew gang-pressing every corpse they come across into a secborg crew and shutting down anything interesting going on before it starts.
That's pretty much the only way I can see it being balanced. It's probably far simpler to lean on the side of 'no', though.
08-18-2017, 04:07 AM (This post was last modified: 08-18-2017, 04:08 AM by Sundance. Edited 1 time in total.)
(08-18-2017, 01:09 AM)Technature Wrote: The other modules still give a fighting chance though.
You get stunned by a baton, you're not getting up..
Roomba Wrote:Here's a thought I had:
The chief concern of people is that if secborgs are easily subverted, very few crewmembers would stand a fighting chance.
...Do they?
Are we still talking about the brobocop here, or some other concept of a secborg?
Just so we're clear, I would absoutely loathe any form of secbot that has any form of weaponry, right down to a flash. A secborg would need to be seen less as an acting officer, more as a tool to which security can use. A glorified forensic scanner that can open doors, dispenses donuts and occasionally, violently dispose of nonhumans. That's literally what a brobocop is, and all it should be.
See below for reference;
Quote:All Modules
A flaslight
A unilyzer (Health, atmospheric and reagent scanner all in one)
An omnitool (Screwdriver, multitool, wirecutters, wrench and crowbar, all in one)
A Cyborg PDA
Brobocop
Starts with a radio tuned into the sec frequency
Starts with Recovery Upgrade
Starts with an Internalised Siren (WIP)
Mood light (Can change colours! Fancy!)
Sound synthesizer (Now with saxophone noises. This is a terrible idea)
Food synthesizer
Bottle of space beer
Drinking glass
A probability mechanism (Coin, Magic 8 Ball and Dice all in one)
Zippo lighter
Magic pen (Switches between crayon and pen modes, can change colours and fonts at will!)
Securotron Deluxe (Can set people to arrest as well as all the other modes)
Security Grenade Fabricator (Can dispense Flashbangs, Cryo Grenades, Cheese sandwich Grenades, Crowd dispersal grenades, has a low chance to malfunction and create banana peel grenades, even lower chance to malfunction and create lethal grenade types)
Large roll of ducktape handcuffs (For cuffing those crimers)
FUN Baton (Essentially the cardboard tube, rolls a 1/10 chance of disarming on the harm intent and deals a fair chunk of stamina damage too. When on help intent, does basically nothing. Needs a better name.)
Forensic scanner
Audio log (Larger capacity, can't eject tape)
Ticketing PDA (Contains Ticket Master, the Ping tool and the packet sniffer)
There's literally no harmful thing on that list, aside from the perhaps the wirecutters/screwdriver in the omnitool. The probably biggest asset is the tape cuffs, but it's been discussed that they're not the traitor kind, they are easily break-out-able.
I dunno. We have the mentality of heat seeking missiles when it comes to topics like this, immediately firing down an idea without considering everything. For me, and for the robopatch, I'm of the opinion that these things need to be tested in-game. The nature of a secborg (..brobocop) should create intresting conflict. When I say this, I mean the slapstick conflict, not the salty OOC conflict. If it's the latter, then it would need to be reviewed. And y'know is reviewing things that such a big deal? I'd like to think it isn't.
Goonhub
