Why security can do not good

[Ed Venture]

Vigilantes can be useful. I know I appreciate them when I am the only Security Officer on the station. I only arrest and punish them if they start acting like a super cop. Cause Super Cops are never helpful. They get in the way and attack everyone around them for not doing things their way.

[Dr Zoidcrab]

Eh some vigilantes are ok. The shit ones that see a lone head of staff or security officer struggling and decide to ridicule them and be antagonistic as fuck eg. stealing their ID and equipment are the ones the crew tends to side with because of that "fuck security" mindset, when it should be the other way around.

Most abusive or incompetant sec officers I've encountered were when I was sec officer myself on those rare rounds where sec is fully staffed, and are usually taken care of before they become a problem.

[misto]

why punish vigilantes? people flood other threads with whining about how the crew is too passive and weak. vigilantism is a core aspect of the game, and responsible for the majority of antag stoppage.

is it because it is hard to tell the difference between a traitor, a vigilante, and a violent dipshit?

its also hard to tell the difference between a sec officer and a traitor who killed a sec officer and wore his uniform and id with a voice changer mask. or a changeling that ate a security officer and turned into him and wore his stuff. you cant expect people to trust you implicitly no matter if security is not allowed to be traitors at roundstart or not.

security has a hard time doing good because, besides having access to some good stunning weapons, people can build shit 10x deadlier around the station and antags can just start with/buy 100x deadlier shit and neither are as bound by fake, vague space law procedure bull shit

this drills down to a core problem in goonstation, that its essentially a built-upon heavily complicated game of mafia, but you risk getting in ooc bannable trouble if you slaughter a non traitor, when the entire idea of a mafia type game is that innocents can and will be slaughtered both by the antag and by the violent mobs trying to hunt the antag down

[Nnystyxx]

[...]

this drills down to a core problem in goonstation, that its essentially a built-upon heavily complicated game of mafia, but you risk getting in ooc bannable trouble if you slaughter a non traitor, when the entire idea of a mafia type game is that innocents can and will be slaughtered both by the antag and by the violent mobs trying to hunt the antag down

Agreed. This is part of why I always show strong support for crewmembers having more improvised weapons, since pipe bombs, flamethrowers and zip guns can all damage the station (zip guns explode for reference), which is a huge no-no for a non-antags and discourages self-defense with these weapons (tying into this: I think a major problem with the game is that some major game segments are entirely fucking pointless for a non-traitor to use, like these weapons, pathology, and toxins)

Security is crippled by a fucked up culture in and around them, vigilantism is discouraged, people either hate or love rampages and immediately shift positions whenever the previous one is brought up, yadda yadda this comes up all the time I can't wait to be told why I'm wrong and why everyone is wrong for this coming up for the 27th time.

I've brought this mafia issue up when I noticed "get the station to lynch mob you" was a miscreant objective despite the fact that, you know, whoever did it would probably get in serious trouble?? unless admins give a pass if that's the guy's objective but what's the point
It's also why I've felt irritated and helpless when people were just being annoying pieces of shit, I only go full rambo if they actually try to significantly hurt me, traitor or none

[Frank_Stein]

I can't say for certain, but I  think the admins practice a good faith clause as far as security accidentally killing innocent people goes.

As in, if they have a good reason to believe you're an antag and their life is at risk, and they don't have a history of flying off the handle they'll get a bit of leeway

This is based on me admin helping being gunned down for picking up a spear near a sec officer while cloaked because of a genetic mutation

[misto]

and before folks come at me, i know you need some degree of mediation or its ass day every day, but i fear we may have erred somewhat excessively on the side of caution, over the years.

if security were buffed in ways that werent so simple to steal, they could be better prepared to act as ingame dipshit mediation rather than having to so frequently rely on admin judgement/intervention

for example if you have to arrest people for breaking into security to steal your things, that is a sign that security is hilariously easy to break into and steal from, and needs mapping updates to make it more secured

[Ed Venture]

for example if you have to arrest people for breaking into security to steal your things, that is a sign that security is hilariously easy to break into and steal from, and needs mapping updates to make it more secured

100% this. Security and the Brig are way too easy to break into and to break out of. The layout needs a buff. Lately on Cogmap 1 I've been seeing officers build R walls on all the weakest parts of the brig so people can't break out. It's ridiculous that we have to go this far just to keep people in the brig.

[Lady Birb]

Lately on Cogmap 1 I've been seeing officers build R walls on all the weakest parts of the brig so people can't break out. It's ridiculous that we have to go this far just to keep people in the brig.

I was doing that as a vice officer. Not being one to play security often I was appalled by how many people were breaking in so they could steal a bunch of our gear. That same round a staff assistant actually used an inactive AI shell to break into security​, put on an orange jumpsuit, and permabrig themselves.

[Ed Venture]

Lately on Cogmap 1 I've been seeing officers build R walls on all the weakest parts of the brig so people can't break out. It's ridiculous that we have to go this far just to keep people in the brig.

I was doing that as a vice officer. Not being one to play security often I was appalled by how many people were breaking in so they could steal a bunch of our gear. That same round a staff assistant actually used an inactive AI shell to break into security​, put on an orange jumpsuit, and permabrig themselves.

Well then you made a great first impression on me then.

[Berrik]

IMO, if you are caught breaking into security and are a staff assistant, sec should be able to do whatever they want to you.

[misto]

mappers should consider consolidating the bridge, ai upload/core and security/armory into a single secured block, for simplicity's sake. you can name it the command module, very spacey

perhaps even i, the great misto, should learn how to make maps, so that you all may be blessed by my power

[Frank_Stein]

mappers should consider consolidating the bridge, ai upload/core and security/armory into a single secured block, for simplicity's sake. you can name it the command module, very spacey

perhaps even i, the great misto, should learn how to make maps, so that you all may be blessed by my power

Yeah. Make it a multichambered kinda thing. More doors to pass through means less likely to get in by running past or breaking through

[Technature]

is it because it is hard to tell the difference between a traitor, a vigilante, and a violent dipshit?

Basically.

The vigilantes and assholes can be just as problematic, and at times, murder happy as the bad guys.  Pretty much the only difference is Vigilante's admit they did a bad thing, but ask for a lighter sentence because, hey, that guy was kind of building a can bomb and it might have gone unnoticed if I didn't do anything.

[Vitatroll]

Vigilantes are an odd case. They're bad when sec is well staffed, but good in the absence of. A lot of players seem to like playing 'sec' without the burden of being sec. Sec is stigmatic. Not sure anything can be done about that without drastically altering the system.

[Huff H Law]

The reason why it's hard to tell between violent assholes, traitors and vigilantes is that they all play the exact same, and should thus be treated the exact same by everyone.

I can't say for certain, but I  think the admins practice a good faith clause as far as security accidentally killing innocent people goes.

As in, if they have a good reason to believe you're an antag and their life is at risk, and they don't have a history of flying off the handle they'll get a bit of leeway

This is based on me admin helping being gunned down for picking up a spear near a sec officer while cloaked because of a genetic mutation

You are correct. As long as you do your job as a security officer not to grief but to genuinely arrest and punish wrongdoers you will not be banned.