Why security can do not good

[Technature]

Stop derailing the thread. Please and thank you.

Let's move this conversation here instead.

So the general consensus from what I've seen is:

1.People trust a random staff assistant more than they trust security officers, who generally can't be antags without an antag making them one.  This often results in security death for simply doing their job because they trust that guy they arrested for shooting an officer.
2.No one seems to report actual crime, and the people that can stop it usually find out in ways that get them murdered and never brought back.
3.People outright antagonize security when they aren't antagonists, or even miscreants.  When given the choice between helping a dying security officer or running off, they choose a third option and proceed to beat them to death.

I know I'm not a super veteran with the security role, but it's kind of ridiculous when someone sides with an antagonist simply because I arrested them for causing problems earlier.

So I suppose the question is, how does one root out this problem and encourage people to trust security officers when they aren't on a power trip and being general shitlords?

[Sundance]

So I suppose the question is, how does one root out this problem and encourage people to trust security officers when they aren't on a power trip and being general shitlords?

Veteran here:

You can't. You can't make people trust security, it's bib is constantly dirty from players either being captured as a traitor, or wrongly mistreated as a "loyal" crewmember. This culture thing isn't unique to goon in the slightest.
The only thing YOU can do is make people trust YOURSELF, and make sure that you don't have a loaded agenda. The best weapon you can use right after your taser is your word.

The next best thing other than having this zen is mitigating the problems security have to deal with from day to day and open up more playstyles by improving features. Which was exactly what the other thread was about.

[Ed Venture]

Another Veteran here:

Most People in generally don't trust cops. So it's not a surprise that it carries over to here in the silly role playing space game. Though from what I experienced for the most part though the years is that when shit goes down the crew tends to help or stay out of the way of Security only to get involved when the officer is most likely going to die without help.

Like Sundance said other then your Taser you have your words but another thing people can go by is if they see you're not shit. Actions speak louder then words. If you keep the same name and play Security constantly you'll see that common players will start to trust you more and more.

The number one issue with Security right now is that no one plays it not that people mess with them too much.

Though if you are a player who loves messing with Security then please know when to stop. I myself will play along with your shenanigans to a certain degree but if people start yelling over the radio that syndies or a rampager are attacking the station it's time to stop and let me do my job. Also know how far to take it cause if your playful messing around crosses the line to being shit you'll most likely find yourself missing some limbs or being thrown out the nearest airlock if it get really awful.

[Frank_Stein]

Though if you are a player who loves messing with Security then please know when to stop. I myself will play along with your shenanigans to a certain degree but if people start yelling over the radio that syndies or a rampager are attacking the station it's time to stop and let me do my job.

 This is generally one of my most favorite moments in a round, when I've having a friendly rivalry with some prankster, the shit hits the fan, and we both immediatetly drop it and work together to address it.

Pranking Sec is OKAY and generally fun for us, but when shit is going down or we're arresting someone it's not the time.

And I'm always glad to deputize someone who wants to help with a crisis response

[Berrik]

It's kind of a cultural thing. For a very long time people were allowed to fuck with security with impunity, then there was a turnaround to hitler security (TURDS and such), then it went back to fucking with security again, then the admins have tried to find a middle ground. Sec isn't much fun to play as regardless.

[Technature]

I suppose what I meant was how to bring people down from "attacking security for seemingly no reason" to "messing with them but staying out of the way when shit happens".

Like, maybe I just have weird rounds, but I tend to find that people are more likely to attack a security officer than the person who clearly has traitor weaponry and is using them at that moment.

Fuck, just the other day I caught on fire through reasons I'm not entirely sure and a person I arrested came by and stapled me several times before running off. (It was actually one of my best security rounds specifically because this person was a fun criminal to try and successfully apprehend, and I remember him complimenting me for not beating him to death after effectively 20-30 minutes of random bullshit, but that's neither here nor there.)

[Crazyabe]

I'll List the what I've been through and what I've seen, though by my standards I'm new so Don't go entirely by what I say.
-Some People, when they are Sec and the round gets boring, go Supercop and Arrest people for as Little as Possible, Eg Stunning the Clown, and perma brigging them for De-gunning the Det who was Shooting them...
-Some people are just a Bit Shit as Sec; for example As Clown, I've been beaten, Flashed 'till blind, Straight jacket'd, Buckle cuffed, De-Limb'd, Space'd, Strangled to death, and perma brigged in my NON antag clown rounds for Pranks(Freeze throwers, Grabbing the Buffer and Cleaning Long Stretches of hall, Routing pipe traps to the test chamber... Ect).
-Some People Don't Care about maintaining Order, and just want guns.
-Decent officers are Rare to Come by, and are Killed off more often then the shit ones Because they are not "Shoot first, Space if they had anything I Wanted"
-The Sec Officer most trusted, is the one which is around when a Ling starts dragging you off... and Actually acts rather then letting him go off into maint.
-People don't trust the guy wearing a Bullet resistant vest and carrying around a taser, because the chances of an officer Letting go of an Antag who beat you into crit and left you to Die, are higher then the guy who was Mugged and beat the shit out of a guy to get his ID back for some strange reason.
-There are four Types of cops,
*Noobs: the people just trying out sec with little experience with the game, No body trusts them, they are the type of people to Declare open season on the clown's head for Metal foaming Sec, they don't look at the chat log... they arn't bad because they are trying to be, just VERY misguided.
*Abusers: The People who think Sec>Captain and Don't really care who is an Antag as long as they get a gun, they probably have some to a lot of Experience, Some people who benefit from them being there Trust 'em, They Shoot people for minor issues and "Forget" to set a brig time, They can read whats going on and view it in the way that best helps 'em. They might as well be Shitsec because they are the guys who Cut off your legs for Slipping 'em and Beat you into crit if you have any sort of gun.
*Do-Gooders: the people who Take sec because they want to help, they are the least trusted form of sec, they are the guys who respond when you call for help... and are also the guys the 'ling will lure off and eat because he can. When it isn't Ling they are likely the best form of Sec.
*Clown Cop: Either the Captain was handing out all access or he Got it himself, but so long as he isn't shooting his fellow Sec he is the Most trusted form of sec, they are the guys who Shoot the antag, Strip 'em, Loot 'em, and make 'em disappear before they know whats going on... but have a Decent chance of being the antag themselves.

[Lady Birb]

I have played for a bit over a year now and have never been on the receiving end of abusive security, and while I have seen it happen to others, it only happens very rarely. I in general never do anything above stealing space suits from EVA on my non-antagonist rounds, so it could just be that I never have been abused by security because I never do anything they can use as an excuse to beat me up. All of my bad experiences with non-antagonist players have been vigilantes and hops.

[Mageziya]

The only time I've seen sec abuse is when someone's being exceptionally shitty, that is, the person is so shit it's difficult to tell if they're an antagonist or not, so security resorts to severely punishing the player, but not killing them. Punishment in this case is stripping of everything of value and a proper Shitcurity Brand Beating™.

I have some recent memories of a clown who flat out assaulted several people receiving such punishment, only for it to be revealed that they were never an antagonist.

[Berrik]

If you're being permabrigged and murdered as a non-antag, adminhelp that shit. That is almost always not okay.

[Tom Clancy's Gay Ghost]

Crazyabe, every point you bring up is just something you should ahelp. I personally never see that happen, and more than anything I think you're exaggerating. Sec CAN do good, they're usually just understaffed/being harassed by at least one person because it's "funny"/worn out from dealing with said people.

[misto]

If you're being permabrigged and murdered as a non-antag, adminhelp that shit. That is almost always not okay.

security has no way of 100% identifying traitors vs nontraitors, slipups are bound to happen and getting ppl banned/jobbanned for it only further cuts down on those willing to play security

security should remember to bring ppl to robotics more frequently. then the person, whether they were rightly or wrongly accused, at least remains participating in the round as a borg. this practice should be encouraged and enshrined in space law. if the ai has been rogued then frankly they probably have bigger fish to fry

[Roomba]

This might be a little personal, Crazyabe, but on most rounds I've seen you, you tend to be a twitchy, trigger-happy captain with a tendency to e.g. wordlessly open fire on (as far as we know) random people in the shuttle, followed by griping either here or in post-round ooc about how people should mind their own business and not stand in the way of OBVIOUS JUSTICE. Your experience with sec might be somewhat different from the average person's, as a result.

Though it does bring up a point: a pretty common misconception is that vigilantes are much more efficient at antag-hunting than sec, because sec officers have to deal with space law, brigging and all that jazz, whereas a vigilante can just murder anyone who looks at them funny and then apologize if it was unwarranted. The trade-off is supposed to be that sec comes down on these people as hard as actual antags, but it doesn't work when the station sides with the vigilante to the point that everyone would rather be a vigilante than a sec officer.

[Berrik]

I don't side with vigilantes. In fact, when I was sec, I would baton them when they came in to loot sec, take their all access ID, and space it.

[Technature]

This might be a little personal, Crazyabe, but on most rounds I've seen you, you tend to be a twitchy, trigger-happy captain with a tendency to e.g. wordlessly open fire on (as far as we know) random people in the shuttle, followed by griping either here or in post-round ooc about how people should mind their own business and not stand in the way of OBVIOUS JUSTICE. Your experience with sec might be somewhat different from the average person's, as a result.

Though it does bring up a point: a pretty common misconception is that vigilantes are much more efficient at antag-hunting than sec, because sec officers have to deal with space law, brigging and all that jazz, whereas a vigilante can just murder anyone who looks at them funny and then apologize if it was unwarranted. The trade-off is supposed to be that sec comes down on these people as hard as actual antags, but it doesn't work when the station sides with the vigilante to the point that everyone would rather be a vigilante than a sec officer.

Yeah, I definitely try to go out of my way to punish vigilante's specifically because it's easier for security to try to determine if a person is an antag or not (it's much harder to hide antag gear when you're suddenly unable to do anything after all).  That in itself causes problems because, as mentioned before, people prefer to side with someone else than with security and tend to use stuff like that as evidence of you being terrible (though vigilante's tend to also be decent enough to just go along with it, which gives me an excuse to punish them a little lighter).