(05-23-2017, 06:39 PM)Lord Birb Wrote: Middle ground solution I came up with for "How do we make punishment an actual punishment without making people suicide":
A before they made the quantum telescope a mining thing and added new tools people were saying that miner was one of, if not the most boring job on the station.
Why don't we make old mining a punishment? Boring enough that it actually is a punishment and interactive enough the prisoners have a reason not to suicide or go braindead.
Labor Camp:
Some hollowed-out asteroid in space around the station or the debris field.
Inside is pressurized and comes with some oxygen tanks (Both back-mounted ones and stationary ones for filling the back-mounted ones), some equipment lockers, a recharger, a one-way security intercom so officers can yell at you, A bunch of crates, a couple cargo teleporters, and a teleporterthat the prisoners use to enter and leave the labor camp that connects to security.
Outside is a few catwalks leading to a mineral magnet and it's control unit, a welder and some wires for repairing the magnet if it gets damaged, as well as some solar panels to keep the place running.
Equipment lockers have the aforementioned oxygen tanks, emergency suits, internals, powered pickaxes, ore scoops/satchels, and not much else.
The teleporter the prisoners use is connected to a quota that security can set for each prisoner. Prisoners must meet their quota of ore delivered to the station before being allowed to teleport back. By the teleporter is also a monitor listing each prisoner's quota so they know how much longer they have. The harder they work, the faster they are released. The teleporter PDA's all security officers when it is used so prisoners can have their non-contraband equipment returned and be released back onto the station.
The emergency suits and internals have chips in them that will cause them to fall apart if the prisoner wearing them gets too far away from the labor camp to prevent them from trying to escape. If you manage to smuggle a screwdriver and crowbar to the labor camp the chips can be removed.
I probably should have made this it's own thread instead of posting it here.
I dunno, if people suicide to being given a reason to read a book for five minutes at most, I don't see them staying alive for something that requires effort.
(05-23-2017, 06:39 PM)Lord Birb Wrote: Middle ground solution I came up with for "How do we make punishment an actual punishment without making people suicide":
A before they made the quantum telescope a mining thing and added new tools people were saying that miner was one of, if not the most boring job on the station.
Why don't we make old mining a punishment? Boring enough that it actually is a punishment and interactive enough the prisoners have a reason not to suicide or go braindead.
Labor Camp:
Some hollowed-out asteroid in space around the station or the debris field.
Inside is pressurized and comes with some oxygen tanks (Both back-mounted ones and stationary ones for filling the back-mounted ones), some equipment lockers, a recharger, a one-way security intercom so officers can yell at you, A bunch of crates, a couple cargo teleporters, and a teleporterthat the prisoners use to enter and leave the labor camp that connects to security.
Outside is a few catwalks leading to a mineral magnet and it's control unit, a welder and some wires for repairing the magnet if it gets damaged, as well as some solar panels to keep the place running.
Equipment lockers have the aforementioned oxygen tanks, emergency suits, internals, powered pickaxes, ore scoops/satchels, and not much else.
The teleporter the prisoners use is connected to a quota that security can set for each prisoner. Prisoners must meet their quota of ore delivered to the station before being allowed to teleport back. By the teleporter is also a monitor listing each prisoner's quota so they know how much longer they have. The harder they work, the faster they are released. The teleporter PDA's all security officers when it is used so prisoners can have their non-contraband equipment returned and be released back onto the station.
The emergency suits and internals have chips in them that will cause them to fall apart if the prisoner wearing them gets too far away from the labor camp to prevent them from trying to escape. If you manage to smuggle a screwdriver and crowbar to the labor camp the chips can be removed.
I probably should have made this it's own thread instead of posting it here.
Conflict is fun: I also agree. That's exactly why I want you dorks to kill me if you catch me murderin' dudes.:suicide:
Being an antag is boring when I don't have to worry about consequences. Well... maybe it's fun to go around practically unopposed like that? Fun is subjective, so I might just be an outlier. Ah, well, I understand. I've all but quit anyway, so there's little point in me arguing.
I'll just stay out of this thread then. It's a little too tempting to mildly derail it for fun. I will say this, though. Some of y'all are a little too focused on facilitating the fun of others. That's not your job; it's the job of the system. I mean, it's fine if you want to do that, but I get the feeling that people think it's mandatory. If that's true, then it means there's an inherent flaw in the system that needs to be rooted out, or that it's just straight up broken.
05-23-2017, 07:00 PM (This post was last modified: 05-23-2017, 07:02 PM by Frank_Stein.)
I say, let their suits work without limiters, but surround the area with drones. Let them gather enough ore to toss and float back on momentum, but have to watch out for the drones
Here's a idea for dealing with minor crimes that the brig isn't worth the trouble for.
Those tickets that Sec can print? Make them work like stickers. Slap them directly onto people and let them walk around with their shame plastered on them
(05-23-2017, 07:00 PM)Frank_Stein Wrote: I say, let their suits work without limiters, but surround the area with drones. Let them gather enough ore to toss and float back on momentum, but have to watch out for the drones
I'd rather just have the limiters, to be honest.
Drones are honestly more of a punishment since you could accidentally lead them back to the prison and wind up getting all of your buddies killed too.
There is a lot that could happen there, given the distance, such as murdering your fellows for their rocks. Also, it would make the Inmate job more interesting, given that the Inmate always escalates his or her imprisonment, assuming they are doing their job.
One idea I had while writing that was, instead of having the cargo transporters and crates there would be a second teleporter that only accepts ore, as with cargo transporters as long as there is more than one inmate there they can easily have one escape by having them lie in a crate and teleport them out.
Also wow I am surprised nobody noticed how about 50% of this is from me reading the /tg/station wiki page on their labor camp and regurgitating it on my keyboard.
(05-23-2017, 10:24 AM)Sundance Wrote: Yeah cog1 brig is a special thing of making your securities role feel hated from the get-go. There was a weird mentality back then that even questioning it's layout branded you as an unfun Nazi.
I'll give Photoshop a whirl tonight to see if I can offer a redesign that lends some ideas from cog2
I wouldnt say that mentality was undeserved, I remember getting cuffed and beaten to death just for standing on the opposite side of the corridor outside sec, and that was with a full team and a HoS.
In the other thread I mentioned my distaste for long brig times, however I think the times we have currently are fine- Although I rarely get a chance to bring in and sentence an antag non-lethally since most of them just suicide or log out, in which case they get a trip to the debris field for their trouble.
Sec could use more fun things, like dumb gimmick outfits or other things that don't necessarily need to be functional.
I think sec equipment is good where it's at, although taser projectile speed could do with being faster, and firing lag could do with fixing so you're not standing there for four seconds after you pull a taser out before the game decides to create a projectile.
(05-23-2017, 03:43 PM)Frank_Stein Wrote: I'm going to try taking a crack at that law book
We already have a space law book though. Believe it's on lljk1 though. Like I said in the other thread on that subject that its important that its clear the book is just a guide line not set in stone rules for the role.
For reference, this is the current text in that book. I'm planning on slimming some bits, adding more about prisoner rights, and courtroom procedures
Frontier Justice on the NSS Destiny: A Treatise on Space Law
A Brief Summary of Space Law
As a Security Officer, the zeroth Space Law that you should probably always obey is to use your common sense. If it is a crime in real life, then it is a crime in this video game. Remember to use your best judgement when arresting criminals, and don't get discouraged if they complain.
For certain crimes, the accused's intent is important. The difference between Assault and Attempted Murder can be very hard to ascertain, and, when in doubt, you should default to the less serious crime. It is important to note though, that Assault and Attempted Murder are mutually exclusive. You cannot be charged with Assault and Attempted Murder from the same crime as the intent of each is different. Likewise, 'Assault With a Deadly Weapon' and 'Assaulting an Officer' are also crimes that exclude others. Pay careful attention to the requirements of each law and select the one that best fits the crime when deciding sentence.
Security roles and their superiors can read the Miranda warning to suspects by using the Recite Miranda Rights verb or *miranda emote. The wording is also customizable via Set Miranda Rights.
Additionally: It is highly illegal for Nanotrasen personnel to make use of Syndicate devices. Do not use traitor gear as a non-traitor, even to apprehend traitors.
Here's a guideline for how you should probably treat suspects by each particular crime.
Minor Crimes: No suspect may be sentenced for more than five minutes in the Brig for Minor Crimes. Minor Crime sentences are not cumulative (e.g: max five minutes for committing multiple Minor Crimes).
Assault
To use physical force against someone without the apparent intent to kill them.
Theft
To take items from areas one does not have access to or to take items belonging to others or the ship as a whole.
Fraud
Breaking and Entering
To deliberately damage the ship without malicious intent.
To be in an area which a person does not have access to. This counts for general areas of the ship, and trespass in restricted areas is a more serious crime.
Resisting Arrest
To not cooperate with an officer who attempts a proper arrest.
Escaping from the Brig
To escape from a brig cell, or custody.
Assisting or Abetting Criminals
To act as, or knowingly aid, an enemy of Nanotrasen.
Drug Possession
To possess space drugs or other narcotics by unauthorized personnel.
Narcotics Distribution
To distribute narcotics and other controlled substances.
Major Crime: For Major Crimes, a suspect may be sentenced for more than five minutes, but no more than fifteen. Like above, multiple Major Crime sentences are not cumulative.
Murder
To maliciously kill someone.
Unauthorised executions are classed as Murder.
Manslaughter
To unintentionally kill someone through negligent, but not malicious, actions.
Intent is important. Accidental deaths caused by negligent actions, such as creating workplace hazards (e.g. gas leaks), tampering with equipment, excessive force, and confinement in unsafe conditions are examples of Manslaughter.
Sabotage
To engage in maliciously destructive actions, seriously threatening crew or ship.
Bombing, arson, releasing viruses, deliberately exposing areas to space, physically destroying machinery or electrifying doors all count as Grand Sabotage.
Enemy of Nanotrasen
To act as, or knowingly aid, an enemy of Nanotrasen.
Creating a Workplace Hazard
To endanger the crew or ship through negligent or irresponsible, but not deliberately malicious, actions.
Possession of Explosives
Suspects guilty of committing Major Crimes might also be sentenced to death, or perma-brigging, under specific circumstances listed below.
Execution, permabrigging, poisoning, or anything else resulting in death or massive frustration requires:
Solid evidence of a major crime
Permission of the following Heads:
the Head of Security
the Captain
the Head of Personnel
Please note that the ruling of the HoS supercedes that of the Captain in criminal matters, and likewise, the Captain with the HoP. Execution should only be used in grievous circumstances. The execution of criminals without Command authority, or evidence, is tantamount to murder.
Standard Security Operating Practice
As a Security Officer, you are expected to practice a modicum of due process in detaining, searching, and arresting people. Suspects still have rights, and treating people like scum will usually just turn into more crime and bring about a swift end to your existence. Never use lethal force when nonlethal force will do!
Detain the suspect with minimum force.
Handcuff the suspect and restrain them by pulling them. If their crime requires a brig time, bring them into the office, preferably via Port-a-Brig.
In the brig, tell them you're going to search them before doing so. Empty their pockets and remove their backpack. Look through everything. Be sure to open containers inside containers, such as boxes inside backpacks. Be sure to replace all items in the containers when you're done. Don't strip them in the hallways!
If you need to brig them you can feed them into the little chute next to the brig. Remember to set the timer!
Confiscate any contraband and/or stolen items, as well as any tools that may be used for future crimes, these need to be placed in a proper evidence locker, or crate and should not be left on the brig floor, or used for personal use, if stolen, return the items to their rightful owners.
I like the idea but there's three things that must be considered:
Firstly whats stopping some sympathetic asshole from saving them from their backbreaking labour? Like flying a pod and them just jumping in? One way to solve this is to make it incased in that super dense asteroid rock, so there is no escape. But then there's the question of is that fair?
Secondly would a player want this? Like would they prefer this over the brig, which would take less time in total? Maybe.
Thirdly, do we have enough space on the debris field?
I've been doing some brainstorming over a cup of coffee, aside from a redesign of Cog-1 brig, what else would be neat? I want things that are both whacky and reflective of NT despot view on humanity.
1. Return of the Lawyer and Space Law
Ok so get this: Every other server has space law and every other server follows it with unrelentlessly. There's two ways we can have it on our server. The first way is to make it simple, a guideline and nothing more. But I was thinking of another way that is whacky and reflective of us as a playerbase.
Let's return the Lawyer. After years of chronic cocaine abuse and one scandal after another, the lawyer returns to the station. He has in possession the law of space. Space law. His role on the station is to use space law, organise trials (preferably gathering juries before any incident to hasten the process), represent criminals but also represent NT (he can swing which way he wants, it's his choice)
All good? The first catch: Space law is hilariously long.It's actually 5 long pages, split over 5 books, going into AGONIZING detail about procedure. The job of Lawyer is to interpet the law and use it to his advantage. Most people wouldn't bother; the lawyer would, being the snivelling annoying prick he is. And the best thing is security don't have to listen. They could arrest the lawyer for obstruction. Or they could read a section and interpet their own way. They could also use it as a punishment in itself, give the prisoner the law and ask them to find what they broke. READING! MY ONLY WEAKNESS!
The second catch? It's Ad-lib. There is parts of the book that randomizes every round, changing figures and nouns. Picture this scenario: Goodwill Jones slams on the reinforced table! Goodwill Jones Says "According to article sector C, 90.1: My client is entitled to WATER every 5 minutes. WHERE IS HIS WATER?!" Goodwill Jones slams on the reinforced table! Goodwill Jones Says "According to article sector D, 34.8 amendment Q: My client is entitled to a FRIENDLY CAT and a BACK RUB every 2 minutes. WHERE IS HIS FRIENDLY CAT AND BACK RUB?!"
This space law is literally designed to be loosely interpeted and has massive loopholes. It's designed to add a fresh new fun dynamic in security that otherwise was absent before. But it's mostly fun. Gooby pls
2. Bail
This one has been an idea of long past, but adds an extra whacky angle. Lets move constanble hooty into the brig (for reference, the brig i'm redesigning has two sections, one for jerks and one for players with minor crimes) Hooty is now metal with an interface on his front, still staring at you and the ghostly ether.
The interface can be swiped with a sec ID, and bail can be set, to whatever amount security feels fit. 500? 1000? 10,000? Swiping again locks it.
The hooty bail machine is no more than a fancy credit transfer device. Upon entering in the appropriate bail, the floorflusher opens.
No money? Use the slot machines! Just got cash? There's an ATM, slot it in! Steal someones ID with loads of cash on it? Nice one! Knock out the dude who actually honestly paid bail and steal his place? Crafty! Bails too damn high? Serve your time or break out!
Essentially this is form of corporate racketeering. Do the crime, pay to leave, station earns money in the process. True NT style.
3. Intelligence gathering
Security are now outfitted with a pneumatic tube in their quarters. For reference: http://img.medicalexpo.com/images_me/pho...609843.jpg
The white containers accept anything and everything. They are transported to QM, bypassing the belt hell and immediately being up on the OUT belt (although a crafty QM can intercept the sensitive items it if they're smart)
The white containers are scanned before being sent down the tube. They are scanning for antagonist items. These include:
- Any traitor item
- Syndicate spacesuits
- Bat meat (butchered from bats)
- Handspider meat (ditto)
- Vampire eyes (concentrated power from a vamp)
- Any wizard gear
- Pieces of blob
- Any organ from a changeling
- Nether residue (dropped on the ground by a wraith after killing it [including first life])
- ??? There's other minor antags that appear: werewolves and the lark.
Upon scanning, a large centcom announcment appears congratulating security of its vigilince at upholding the law. The security team (lawyer and det too heh) get a hefty bonus of space cash. A delivery of x1 chrome armor + 1x self charging chrome taser is sent to QM to pick up (security will now fight over who rightfully claims it)
The catch is that there's only 3 white tubes, so this can only be done 3 times + it has a cooldown. So you cant capture a traitor and dump his items over all at once.
This gives security a GOAL to work towards, something like the lawyer, is a dynamic that's sorely missed in security.
I wonder, is there any merit to the idea of making Sec immune to mindslaving? We're supposed to trust these guys, give them the benefit of the doubt when they say the guy they're pummeling is a traitor. It's part of why they can't be antagonists.
Mindslaves throw a wrench into this mix. It makes it possible for sec to be antagonists, and in a way gives the possibly for /all/ of sec to be antagonists with how many implants a traitor can buy.
I mean, there is something to be said about using the crew's inherent trust of the HoS to get better initiative on murder, but that'll only go so far until the meta shifts to include sec as being just as likely as anyone else to be antagonists.
And yes this is a kneejerk reaction to being absolutely demolished by Wrestleman Walter and his pet HoS. He woulda clotheslined me into oblivion without his help, but someone in deadchat brought up how unfair mindslaved sec can be.
Goonhub
