Chain of Command: Captain or HoS

[Ed Venture]

[Vitatroll]

Honestly the biggest shock of this thread is that the clown isn't in the lead.

[Frank_Stein]

[TheNewTeddy]

[UrsulaMejor]

The position I think your taking ursula is a bit laughable, do you really think the crew takes orders?

No. That's not my position.

In my opinion, no. The Head of Security is the Captain's subordinate, meaning that the Captain is free to give the Head of Security orders on any kind of inane bullshit he wants. Naturally, the Head of Security is not required to participate (Dereliction of duty is always an option), but he is not allowed to punish the Captain player by brigging him, taking his stuff, and locking up any other nerds that happen to be working for him on the project.

Now, do people actually have to participate in these shitty gimmicks? No. Do they have to like them? No!

In fact, I would actively encourage the non-security crew to form in-game mutinies when faced with incorrigible gimmicks.

But the HoS? No. The HoS, as evidenced by the fact we have to apply to become it, should be, and is, held to a higher standard of play than other players. It's not the role you take in order to flex your superiority muscles, but a mentorship role where your goal is guide the progress of the round from within and attempt to make the round interesting while reigning back the often totalitarian security forces.

My position is pretty clear.

When it comes to passive resistance against the Captain, i.e., ignoring orders and doing whatever you want and refusing to participate, the HoS has the same right as anyone else to do so.

But when it comes tp active resistance against the Captain, i.e., overriding orders or arresting the Captain (again, to clarify, arresting the Captain for petty crime like obstruction, stealing, graffiti, breaking noncritical windows, whatever. Basically anything in which a crew-member is not directly harmed, only inconvenienced), I believe the HoS does not have that right. It's not within his job description, it's not in his outlined behaviors, and it's not something becoming of a professional or mentor or whatever you want.

The HoS's right to override a Captain's order if and only if that order is a cruel and unusual punishment and/or execution is a game mechanic to prevent traitor Captains from ordering security to kill their targets. This doesn't imply that the HoS has any real authority over the Captain in any other instance, including the authority by which to arrest him. The Captain sets station policy for security matters, and therefore he is allowed to excuse himself from it (again, so long as that doesn't involve hurting or killing people).

The HoS is fully entitled to stop this because you are blocking off the corridor, so people can get trapped, or even die if they were in crit and had to make it to medbay. The HoS after all is a mediator between people having fun at other peoples expense. If you cross that line, you get put in the slammer, captain included.

1) I'd argue he doesn't, if the Captain is the one doing it

2) I'd argue this is a spiritual obligation of the HoS, not something supported by any in-game authority other than his authority over security. It's his job to make sure security isn't having fun at everyone's expense by arresting everyone for meaningless crimes and permabrigging them. It might also be his job as a mentor to try to encourage other players who are having fun at other players' expense to stop, but if someone is seriously damaging the fun of other players for their own benefit, that's a job for Adminhelp, not the HoS

One thing I want to touch on is your scenarios, as I feel like it's one of the reasons you made this thread.

It isn't. It's an example, not a reason. Ask Edventure; I've had this discussion with him absent any personal involvement or even an actual situation to be discussing.

That particular round served to remind me of that previous discussion with him, and made me realize that a second person (you) agreed with his position. I had thought that my position was the normal position, so I made this thread to advocate it.

The relationship between the HoS and the Captain is generated round by round by the players involved. This is a community-developed set of guidelines, and so the guidelines should reflect how the community feels on the matter.

As things stand currently, the community's feelings do not appear to match the guidelines the community has written, and they don't appear to match my feelings on the matter.

As we can see from the poll, the community doesn't all agree on this topic, either. It's actually pretty even.

What I'm advocating in this thread is, in part, to try to convince people to think of the HoS position in a way similar to me. But it is, primarily, something I hoped would foster a discussion that would lead to more clear guidelines being written up on the wiki, even if those guidelines don't match my position.

[Vitatroll]

The captain isn't a king.

[UrsulaMejor]

The captain isn't a king.

[APARTHEID]

Wait, the guidelines? You mean THESE guidelines,

The big boss! Gets a swanky green and gold suit, and golden ID card, a kick-ass hat and a gun. Technically has the responsibility of running the station and making sure things work correctly, but is typically either an incompetent boob, a power-crazed psycho or just doesn't care and will use their power to conduct experiments, run gimmicks, and get hammered. In all of the above cases, they will frequently get shot in the face by antagonists, because they want to jack the cool shit.

The HoS isn't all about catching traitors. The HoS is supposed to be a beacon of light on a fart-filled station. He's supposed to keep officers in-line, and make sure that the station isn't held hostage by security with harm-batons. 

When being the head of security, you should constantly be checking in with the crew as to how your officers are doing. If someone is being shitty, yell at them! The common number of warnings given by an HoS is about 2-3, depending on how heinous they are. 

Murder and bucklecuffing (A non-traitor for more than 2 minutes) should be grounds for immediate dismissal, accompanied by a stripping of gear, an ID change to 'shitler', and a trip to robotics because their ass is yours.

Are you serious? These arguments were already handled on the dang wiki!

[UrsulaMejor]

Are you serious? These arguments were already handled on the dang wiki!

Sorry if I'm being dense, but I read through your examples and don't see anything that addresses the argument at hand, which is, does the HoS have the authority to brig/demote the captain (for non traitorous acts)?

If you could be more specific, that would be helpful.

Because from what I've seen from the wiki, that issue just... Isn't addressed. Even though it happens all the time.

[Ed Venture]

I think it's up for common sense. If a captain is being extremely shitty no one is going to get upset at who demotes them. Just because they are the drunken leader of the station does not give them complete immunity for doing shitty things while being a non-antag.

[Noah Buttes]

I accidentally voted for the HoS when I meant to vote for the clown.


The clown is really the only person with any authority.

[Frank_Stein]

Are you serious? These arguments were already handled on the dang wiki!

Sorry if I'm being dense, but I read through your examples and don't see anything that addresses the argument at hand, which is, does the HoS have the authority to brig/demote the captain (for non traitorous acts)?

If you could be more specific, that would be helpful.

Because from what I've seen from the wiki, that issue just... Isn't addressed. Even though it happens all the time.

I think, the only people who can demote someone are heads, and really should only do that in cases where they're just shitting everything up.

Now when it comes to when a Head should be demoted, that's most likely a security matter, so yes I'm going to say a HoS can do this.

Ideally, it wouldn't be done lightly and without the consensus of the other heads.

Here's a question for everyone though: If the Captain is brigged for traitorous actions, who assumes command, the HoS or the HoP, assuming both have shown themselves to be equally competent and trustworthy?

[UrsulaMejor]

Here's a question for everyone though: If the Captain is brigged for traitorous actions, who assumes command, the HoS or the HoP, assuming both have shown themselves to be equally competent and trustworthy?

The traditional order has been Cap -> HoP -> HoS -> MD/CE -> RD

Running the station is more of a paper-pushing HR type thing, which is why the HoP is Vice-Captain.

That's been my opinion since back when the HoS started with no shoes, though. Things might have changed since then.

[Ed Venture]

Most of the time the HOP takes command but they are either dead or they vanished so it goes to the HoS and when I as a HoS or HoP take command I just find a replacement for the Captain.

[APARTHEID]

And we've come full circle to the Clown being in charge of the station.