Thoughts on harm lube?

[kaspok]

so i'm a sec main (there is no saving my soul) and one thing I have ran into a fair lot the past month or 2 is antags using harm lube. Now harm lube takes around 10 seconds to make and when applied to a tile it will slip, disarm, and stun (for around 5 seconds iirc) anyone who runs or walks over it. On top of all this it is painfully easy to lube a tile while being chase by a secoff. All this in turn makes lube stronger than a fair lot of the gear that cost actual TC. I feel that if given the choice more players would pick harm lube over something like a csaber or pred to kill sec with because you can easily bait a secoff into a chase, slip them, and then steal whatever stun item they had in their hands. Keep in mind this isnt even a choice that tratiors have to make because they CAN buy whatever they want and still have harm lube on back up.

The counter argument that comes to mind is the fact that you can see tiles that are lubed and although that is a downside it really isn't a meaningful one especially if you are a secoff. If you are a secoff and you see a row of lube tiles what do you do? laying down on the ground and crawling over works sure but if the antag is running they are going to 100% get away and if they are waiting for you to act you have to put yourself in a vulnerable position to get to them. Alongside all of this you really cant even see lube tiles in darkness so if you are giving chase in maints or dark hallways and dont have time to turn a flashlight on you are just done for. And all this is if you are actively looking out for lube mid chase which most secoffs arent so even then it is very easy to pull a fast one on a secoff whos chasing close behind.

Now how do we fix this. Well thats the point of this post to see what other people think of harm lube and what can be done to fix the issues with it. I myself have heard many good points such as making harm lube use items from botany, making the lube user hands slippery so they cant pick up things, items slip alongside the person whos slip, and so on (NOOT wrote a lot of great ideas in another thread and these are just some of them).

So what do you guys think about lube? I wanted to make this post to really collect and find out what most players think about this because I have seen it talked on the discord a good lot but I dont believe there are any post on the matter.

[saccharineChampion]

If you are a secoff and you see a row of lube tiles what do you do?

Use a beaker of carbon to end the lube's effects.

I think the existence of weapons that antags can use without spending TC is important, and that lube of either kind is a valid part of that toolbox. It helps significantly on the axis of allowing an antag to overcome a singular unprepared opponent; while harmlube can affect multiple people at once, the stun is short enough that you don't have as much gain if sec/a mob is coming after you.

It being countered effectively by carbon also makes it part of the ecosystem of threat and response, which imo is pretty important for security and antags to have; security has tools they probably don't have on-hand to deal with a given issue (cloakers/thermals are another example), so the antag has a temporary advantage they need to make the most of before they get countered.

Overall, I think the ability to "bait a secoff into a chase, slip them, and then steal whatever stun item they had in their hands" is a good thing to exist, not something that should be mechanically erased as a possibility.

[Lord_earthfire]

Fighting lube users is an important skill to learn in security, and mostly comes down to not running around with your baton in the open all the time. In the ranges soneone can reliable lube floor in front of your baton is better off being in your belt.

The clown seeing a running secoff with a baton and banana peeling them to steal it is a classic for a reason.

Slips (also banana peels) are on the other side very important to combating security. Fighting security directly is very often a death sentence so people are given tools to do it indirectly and to support their antag gear. Lube, banana peels, meth, capsaicin sponges, pipebombs. These don't compare in raw power to antag gear, but are very much support to their gear. Thats why i would disagree that traitors prefer lube instead of TC gear, as they want both. You use lube to fix your c-sabers weakness of needing to go to melee with secoffs.

[Frolicsome Flufficorn]

If you are a secoff and you see a row of lube tiles what do you do?

It being countered effectively by carbon also makes it part of the ecosystem of threat and response, which imo is pretty important for security and antags to have; security has tools they probably don't have on-hand to deal with a given issue (cloakers/thermals are another example), so the antag has a temporary advantage they need to make the most of before they get countered.

See, this would be a valid argument. if it wasnt far easier to place it then it was to see it or in this case nullify it with carbon. See theres this funny effect when you click your PDA with a lube beaker in hand where it auto drops it on the tile below you removing the skill of placing it on the floor while running. This makes it significantly easier to apply it to the floor literally right before sec is about to reach you. This therefore has no counter as it doesnt rely on any level of skill as you arent clicking a tile. Your just clicking your Pda for the most convenient drop.

Lube, contrary to what many might think, doesnt have counter play. Let me explain, If the counter to lube is to lay down over it or to place carbon on top etc. Then the antag has already won. By the time sec has to lay down to get over the lube the antagonist using it has escaped or worse is waiting on the other side of the lube. Your two options are quite literally run around (which isnt always a option), lay down which removes all your defensive and offensive capabilities for about a second to two seconds or you nullfy its effects with a sponge or carbon which is far harder to clean up then it is to place down.

Also, its actually crazy that people see lube as balanced. In terms of its crafting recipe I actually challenge you to think of a more easy to make chem. Lube might be in the group of easiest to make chems. If this is the case, why is it so strong? why do antags get a item FOR FREE, that is better than 95% of all other gear. A item thats counterplay according to this is to have sec drop everything they are doing because if they dont they slide along the floor until they hit a wall, take a 5 second stun and drop whatever they are holding for the cheap cheap cost of silicon, Oxygen and water as well as Helium.

Even if lets say for example, you have perfect vision and can see Lube every time (which is near impossible because it blends in with the tile so well, especially in dark areas), Your chasing a antagonist along a corridor and you need to shoot them with your taser. they have bottle necked you through 2 doors with lube. YOu as a sec off have decided that You need to put away your taser. Either slide or lay down to get over the lube. Then you have to get your taser back out and by that time the chase is over since it took about 2 seconds to pull this off and the next door is also lubed.

Have we really gotten to the point where we are putting 6-7 TC items on the same level as a chem which can be gotten for free within the first 30 seconds of the game?

Yeah, I honestly think that more than many other things, right now Lube (more specifically harm lube but also lube) needs a nerf, My personal suggestion is to make the recipe for Lube far harder. Make it so I cant make it with purely just Things within a Chem dispenser, (which then by proxy makes harm lube harder). Or alternatively, Just make it so lubes slip isnt a 5 second stun (which theoretically means that someone could sit at the end of where people slip and put handcuffs on them in the time it takes to get out of the lube stun). I dont think we can fix the item dropping upon being hit by lube due to the way Goon is (laying down on the floor = no item in hand)

So let me make this clear, while sure you can counter lube, the current counters just make it so lube is at the very LEAST a perfect way to escape. Just the whole system with it makes it the Hard counter for sec, like sec has no counter play to catching a antag who has alot of lube. The most you can hope for is that they run out, which they wont. Because its easy to make.

[Lord_earthfire]

So let me make this clear, while sure you can counter lube, the current counters just make it so lube is at the very LEAST a perfect way to escape. Just the whole system with it makes it the Hard counter for sec, like sec has no counter play to catching a antag who has alot of lube. The most you can hope for is that they run out, which they wont. Because its easy to make.

The counter is asking the ai to lock them down and/or engage in ranged combat. Use CC grenades or flashbangs.

Or take the hardcounter: get magboots.

Simply said: don't play into the strenghts and home turf of an antags tactic.

If you play into the antags way and go out in a chase unprepared, you get slipped and deserve it. You also dont run blindly into a room full of bombs and expect to go out alive there. Or try to run blindly into a ranch full of raptors. Or try to chase a mechboot user

Lube requires a different approach. Thus does not make it a hard counter to sec. And this makes it special and warrants its place.

Have we really gotten to the point where we are putting 6-7 TC items on the same level as a chem which can be gotten for free within the first 30 seconds of the game?

We should go back to this point. Too much non-antag, non-security stuff was nerfed hard or removed in the time i am here.

The power discrepancy between crew and security+antags has risen. And this brings some problens with it.

[Kotlol]

Lube is a Goon staple besides.. if it's not lube.. it's banana peels.

If you want to nerf slipping, just add an item to the security members tools so they gotta decide.

Unslippable shoes, but they cost more stamina to walk in.
Or 2 of the other tool set.

[Lord_earthfire]

If you want to nerf slipping, just add an item to the security members tools so they gotta decide.

Magboots or galoshes exist. You don't have to explicitely give a new item to security, when you can just ask another department for them.

[Thebutler]

If you want to nerf slipping, just add an item to the security members tools so they gotta decide.

Magboots or galoshes exist. You don't have to explicitely give a new item to security, when you can just ask another department for them.

Why not just add roundstart magboots to security

[Lord_earthfire]

Why not just add roundstart magboots to security

Because this is a spaceststion where everyone got to cooperate? A lube-spamming antag is enough of a special case that security does not need magboots in general and can ask other departments to provide them.

Slip-, spacing-, carry- and knockback-immunity are so powerfull that should be locked away outside securities graps, save for special circumstances (all things magboots provide). They start already with enough powergaming-gear in general and there is a reason they got locked out of stuff like medbay vendors.

[Mouse]

If you want to nerf slipping, just add an item to the security members tools so they gotta decide.

Magboots or galoshes exist. You don't have to explicitely give a new item to security, when you can just ask another department for them.

Neither one prevents slipping on lube.

[Lord_earthfire]

If you want to nerf slipping, just add an item to the security members tools so they gotta decide.

Magboots or galoshes exist. You don't have to explicitely give a new item to security, when you can just ask another department for them.

Neither one prevents slipping on lube.

The magboots should stun you but dont make you slip.

Tbh, galoshes could be changed then to grant lube immunity. Make janitors the knights of combating/using lube

Then add a pair of galoshes to the janitor crate. Boom, security can walk to cargo, order 5 crates, and waddle around with galoshes to chase the lubing traitor.

[Garash]

If you are a secoff and you see a row of lube tiles what do you do? ... if the antag is running they are going to 100% get away

What's wrong with that? If an antag wants to run away, and makes preparation, however minimal, to improve their getaway chances, then imo they should be able to run away from a single secoff 100% of the time. Rounds would be awful boring if antags lost the option to disengage as soon as they see a single secoff. Catch them on their next crime!

harm lube takes around 10 seconds to make

Acquiring helium is pretty trivial on some maps, haul a beaker to the clown hole before heading to your chem dispenser of choice, but I doubt much harm lube gets made on donut 3, where the clown hole is tucked away on the off-station asylum, much more than a 10 seconds walk to get there.

[Lord_earthfire]

something, idea guy, something, just do it, something something

https://github.com/goonstation/goonstation/pull/14725

[Cal]

See theres this funny effect when you click your PDA with a lube beaker in hand where it auto drops it on the tile below you removing the skill of placing it on the floor while running.