C-Saber changes

[Erev]

So, I just watched a decent c-saber rampage and was chatting with folks about the weapon some (I had exploded much earlier due to the AI). To differentiate it somewhat from a nastier, pocketable katana lets look at changing the c-saber up some.

First change:
Once you turn it on, it stays on until it runs out of its (brand new) battery. You've got a timer and will be noticeable during this period and need to replace the power cell afterwards. If you use a plasma-filled power cell its insta-gib time.

Second change:
During initial activation have it ramp up in power. Within the first few seconds it ramps up more and more burn and stun and after that it is at full power.

Third change:
Make it just a little bit nastier to make up for the other changes - probably a little more direct damage. After the first hit most people are already doomed so let the attacker finish them off quicker to do more while his sword timer is running.

[Sick Ness Monster]

I feel like the problem at the moment is that if you get whacked even once your death warrant is pretty much signed. Combine that with the fact that it's an incredibly effective sneak weapon since you can just pull it out of a pocket, activate it and have someone dead in less than ten seconds.

Another idea I liked was raised in that discussion similar to the second change - that the c-saber could take a couple seconds to ignite, removing its stealth attack capacity somewhat.

Admittedly, I'm very biased because I think murder rampages just plain suck - but I think adding some changes like these are necessary so that people actually have somewhat of a chance to get away. They're at their worst in lowpop rounds which I play a fair few of, and in those circumstances it can be very easy for a rampager to get a fair few stealth attacks off on various crew members without anyone else having a chance to find out, and that's purely because of how strong the c-saber is, and how little warning you typically get when they wander up and just instakill you. Interested to hear other opinions, though!

[Trustworthy]

Personally, I'm of the opinion the csaber is perfectly fine as it is. I've run away from people activating their csaber next to me plenty of times, and in terms of power its weaker than the katana, as stamina buffs affect the csaber disabling you. The katana? Cut off both arms and pull them, they can't do anything while you behead them. It's also easily storable, like the csaber, but has the added advantage of not setting off security scanners, so you don't even get a warning of "hey, this guy may possibly be bad!".

Honestly, the only time I've died to a csaber rampager was when they were using something other than a csaber to provide the stun, and then going to town. And being stunned is game over no matter what weapons they're gonna use to finish you off, so I don't think the csaber should suffer on the tasers behalf, considering the crusher, or spacing, are just as good at killing a stunned foe. If it had a battery it would just become even worse than the katana and you'd see katana rampages, because the csaber would be so much worse than it, that it's not worth using the funny light sword anymore. That's my two cents on the issue.

[Erev]

I personally don't have a problem with rampaging, my bigger thing is that it is very much like the katana. Having one be the obvious but long term deadly (since the katana is rather large) vs a quick, powerful, temporary weapon makes them different enough to be interesting.

[Flaborized]

Don't particularly like the idea of giving it ammo or making it not super good when you first pull it out; the stealth attack thing is like, the entire use-case of the item, and I think those changes both get rid of the niche of the weapon and ruin its identity.

IMO a better change would be to lean into what current weaknesses and strengths it has and to lean into those. Make it a lot *louder* (in that it could be heard from further away like explosions) and potentially give people non-murder reasons to use it. Making it louder would make it even more of a "Oh shit I just heard this specific scary weapon!" thing which I think fits, and then giving it more uses would both compensate for it being louder and incentivize people to get more creative with it. Like, what if you could use them to cut through or bash down walls for example? (You can sorta do this with walls and windows already).

I don't think the weapon is specifically too strong, but I think the design of the weapon leads to people using it in a sorta boring way? I think that, unintuitively, giving the item a few changes that can be seen as "buffs" would make it more interesting to use and see used without getting rid of its identity.

[Erev]

Don't particularly like the idea of giving it ammo or making it not super good when you first pull it out; the stealth attack thing is like, the entire use-case of the item, and I think those changes both get rid of the niche of the weapon and ruin its identity.

IMO a better change would be to lean into what current weaknesses and strengths it has and to lean into those. Make it a lot *louder* (in that it could be heard from further away like explosions) and potentially give people non-murder reasons to use it. Making it louder would make it even more of a "Oh shit I just heard this specific scary weapon!" thing which I think fits, and then giving it more uses would both compensate for it being louder and incentivize people to get more creative with it. Like, what if you could use them to cut through or bash down walls for example? (You can sorta do this with walls and windows already).

I don't think the weapon is specifically too strong, but I think the design of the weapon leads to people using it in a sorta boring way? I think that, unintuitively, giving the item a few changes that can be seen as "buffs" would make it more interesting to use and see used without getting rid of its identity.

Giving it more utility would be a cool thing - it's a light sword so cutting walls and such would make sense. Katana might need a rebalance in that case so it isn't just the 'bad, obvious version with slightly more limb chopping'. Maybe the katana is good at cutting through people's items in hand vs the c-saber's wall and door utility?

Edit: Louder is good too, perhaps a hum when not in active use too?

[Sundance]

Big red message when drawing:

Sundance Feely's C-Saber illuminates into view!

It should also glow when drawn, the same color as the C-saber. This way it's obvious in the dark.

Perhaps, a slightly slower draw? Currently it is instant when activating, maybe 2 seconds for it to be actual usable?

Edit as per flabs suggestion: C-Saber is ALREADY very good at destroying windows and doors, I can attest to this.

[RichardGere]

Big red message when drawing:

Sundance Feely's C-Saber illuminates into view!

It should also glow when drawn, the same color as the C-saber. This way it's obvious in the dark.

Perhaps, a slightly slower draw? Currently it is instant when activating, maybe 2 seconds for it to be actual usable?

Edit as per flabs suggestion: C-Saber is ALREADY very good at destroying windows and doors, I can attest to this.

It already glows in the dark. The current iteration is balanced around it being instantly usable on activation, so you would have to bring up the stamina damage to compensate. Also delays overall feel really wonky when added arbitrarily, imo.

Flabs suggestion on making it louder would be interesting though. Currently on medium-high pop, if you kill someone with a csaber on-station then in the overwhelming majority of cases someone somewhere will hear you and report it on the radio. However, this is not necessarily the case on low pop, since the larger maps like cog1 are still played frequently even on low pop - meaning people will be more spread out and thus less likely to report it.

Another change that we considered and tested before deploying the last balance change was to make the stamina damage disorient-based instead. This means things like barrier, riot armor, etc would significantly affect the stamina damage dealt by the weapon. During testing, a riot armor + barrier setup more or less nullified the stamina damage; by the time you got stunned you were dead from the brute damage.

[Sundance]

I'm not convinced that slowing the retraction is arbitrary, however I sense it may be nerfing it to a certain degree where katana is better and I wouldn't want that. They should be like and like.

I agree that loudness should be increased, or better yet - the sound travels further. If it already glows, then needs to glow far more imo, as I've witnessed this myself in dark maint. This combined with a big red message when retracting should basically yell "Hey SABER OVER HERE!"

I'm afraid the riot armor + barrier set up is a moot one. While this may assist during nuclear operatives (if you've stunned them, then they are likely to be mobbed) it won't assist during a traitorous rampage so much.. as well, it requires you to have riot armor and that's not within reach of the crew.

[UrsulaMejor]

What if the saber, given that it's a physical extensible blade, "popped out" rather rather quickly, but took some time to fold back into the handle once it was out. Still an effective ambush weapon, but you bear the risk of losing it once it's out because now you're holding a giant heckin glowstick and it takes 5 seconds to put it away

[RichardGere]

I'm afraid the riot armor + barrier set up is a moot one. While this may assist during nuclear operatives (if you've stunned them, then they are likely to be mobbed) it won't assist during a traitorous rampage so much.. as well, it requires you to have riot armor and that's not within reach of the crew.

Oh absolutely, as crew you shouldn't even be using riot gear at all in this situation, unless you're also given a full sec gear setup with ranged stunners.
The hard counter to all melee weapons is available in bulk to all crew members in the bar.

[Kak0phony]

The hard counter to all melee weapons is available in bulk to all crew members in the bar.

Plates!

[Frank_Stein]

IMO a better change would be to lean into what current weaknesses and strengths it has and to lean into those. 

That's probably the best way to go. 

I don't think it needs to be louder. I can't think of any time someone deployed a saber without someone else hearing it. It could use a running noise, like a dull hum, so the noise is trackable the whole time it's deployed.

I do like the idea of it giving off more light, since that both makes it more obvious and serves a utility of providing the wielder a light source. 

Maybe it also generates heat and can keep you warmer in colder environments? Or be used to cauterize bleeding?

Now that blocking is a thing, maybe both the katana and csaber could get block bonuses as well? The c-saber at reducing energy weapon attacks, the katana at physical ones?

[Superlagg]

IMO a better change would be to lean into what current weaknesses and strengths it has and to lean into those. 

That's probably the best way to go. 

I don't think it needs to be louder. I can't think of any time someone deployed a saber without someone else hearing it. It could use a running noise, like a dull hum, so the noise is trackable the whole time it's deployed.

In space, no one can hear you deploy your rampage rod. Course, if you've depressurized much of the station, you could get roughly the same results with an extinguisher.

As it stands, the drawbacks of the C-Sabre make it difficult to use effectively as an early-round rampage weapon, since the moment you use it you're going to be dogpiled by nerds (and if you aren't they kinda deserve what they get), and ultimately end up killing maybe a couple people.

However, it really shines later in the round to clean up the stragglers in the wake of your primary antagonistry, when people are generally confused and trying to wander around in the dark toward safety, airless and cold.

I've found great success with the C-Saber as a traitorous Mechanic, silently shanking survivors of the two or three nukes I'd set off, or handing out dozens of C-Sabors to the crew and randomly murdering people after they get desensitized to the noise.

Not sure where I'm going with this, but making it more obvious might actually make it a better stealth weapon.

(If anything I'd recommend nerfing the Mesons. I swear those things are fantastic nightvision goggles if you can stand the green)