On the subject of RP Security Officer access

[Cherman0]

Even not relating to security, I think it would be beneficial if access requirements were less strict in general on lowpop. Maybe if there are less than 25 human players alive an announcement gets sent about the station being in "Understaffing contingency mode" or something and access requirements are loosened so people can more easily flex into roles that dont have anyone at the moment. Might be better to specifically detect departments lacking in staff to apply to, but thats more code and probably harder for players to keep track of. And obviously if pop goes above 25 a similar announcement gets sent about access requirements being reinstated (after a delay so that people dont get stuck).

[discordic]

[quote pid="198515" dateline="1697731953"]
Its very rare to.have command
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Out of curiosity - would you be more inclined to go Captian/ HoP on 4 if security didn't have their current access?

Ed: I can't quote, ah well.

[Silent Majority]

No. I dont want to. I like helping and i like the sec gameloop. If i do captain its for larger pops

[GuiHppn]

I didn't read aaaaall the discussion, but I quite like the way access works now. Even if security has a pretty good access, often I see them interacting with the department instead of just waking in like they own the place, at least when it's not an emergency/life and death situation. Doing that it's usually read as being unpolite/rude, both in context and in a ooc perspective, where sec can metabuse their access to get stuff that they want when they could ask for it. I have a personal experience where I learned how to fix the paint machine, and would get it fixed on my own almost every shift, silently walking into places, getting what I needed and fixing it, until the CE complained IC that I could ask them for it since it's their job and not mine. I feel the rules "stay in your lane" and "try to roleplay" kinda covers that pretty good. I also feel restraining access would incentive sec to go after insuls and hacking tool "just in case". In my hos experience it's hard enough keeping security toolbox and insuls in security so we have a kit when we need it, and it could get worse with lower access
Edit: The warrant system seems dope tho

[Glamurio]

an issue I see with testmerging things like this to test them out is that there's not really any designated area to put feedback on said testmerge without commenting on the github page itself, which requires an account. I feel like a lot of the active players affected by said testmerges don't know where to leave their feedback, and as such, end up keeping it to themselves because of this. I feel like for such a major change, it would be best to have that testmerge directly point to a place to leave feedback

Well we can use the forums for that

The forums are a super antiquated format and I'd wager to say that around 80% of people actually playing the game don't interact with it. Just saying "well people can use the forum" doesn't mean people will actually use the forum, literally it already needing a signup will dissuade a good percentage. Discord isn't an ideal solution either, but at least it's widely more accessible because many people use it, but it has the same issue. Perfect would be an in-game feedback form akin to the way GitHub issues work, ideally anonymous.

I believe that removing the extended access from security, will just cause security to find an AA on the slightest sign of trouble, like it happens on other servers that have limited access for sec. 

Classic sec basically never does this, I hope that roleplay sec can behave better then classic sec because if not theres some issues there

Classic Sec isn't directly comparable to RP Sec. Classic Sec is allowed to apprehend you, or even kill you on sight under specific circumstances, antags don't need to escalate, and I've been mauled to death before finishing my sentence on classic more than once. Running behind a door Sec doesn't have access to is one of the few ways antags can escape Security pursuits there.

I think, without knowing, that people are too scared to try this out without testing it and come up with all sorts of solutions for work arounds. Yes, it works on classic and so can it on RP.
Before you mention "but classic can validhunt so it doesn't matter there", there are no rules against defending yourself on RP if you're attacked.

Lowpop threshold shouldn't be something given to sec, but more like "oh there is no chef, let's add kitchen access to bartender" or "oh, there are no botany, let's give catering hydroponics access"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are literal rules against defending yourself on RP if you're attacked. If an Officer is arresting you, you're not allowed to just beat them and free yourself in retaliation. And since Security doesn't always 100% know who the bad guy is, and because lying is allowed, this is a necessary system.

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Ultimately, I'm against this change. As some people have pointed out, removing access doesn't inherently foster RP, it will first and foremost make people find ways to circumvent it. Additionally, Security is by far the role with the most RP in the entire game, and it's the least in need of a rework. Lowpop statements aside, asking for a departmental head or the AI to come open a door for you repeatedly will get old very quickly. Inversely, even, on particularly high pop rounds, the AI will be too busy to open every door for Security while there's other things to be done. Antags are not beholden to the rules of playing nice, so they will abuse the fact that they can keep running behind doors you cannot open. As previously mentioned, this is less of an issue on Classic because you can shoot them in the face if they keep doing it, but you don't (and shouldn't) have that luxury on RP.

Even though I think the way the system works is fine, I likely expect this to get added anyway, and as such I could at least sign off on the idea of introducing an alert system akin to the way the armory works. We could have different "Security Levels", and add access given on the severity of the antags present. Perhaps this switch should be on the bridge, so it could be increased by the Heads, where the button is currently located. On the highest level, the armory would open, too.

The departmental Security access is a neat idea, but I worry this will take on a "function over form" style, where people will choose departments that give "the best access", and as mentioned before does not solve the lowpop issue.

[LeahTheTech]

There are no rules against retaliation on RP. You are allowed to and are expected to defend yourself in a way that would be reasonable for your character.