Vampire Thrall Cost & Thrall Arms

[Chayot]

I don't expect this post to change anything, nor am I even calling for change to come about. 
If change were to come about from this, that would be welcomed--However I don't want to kick up dust for change to come about. 
That is not the goal of this thread. 

The Significance of this thread is both to gather Opinions on the subject, as well as for posterity's sake. 

Two changes were made to vampire months ago, likely with balance in mind. 
The first of the two being Thrall arms. Secondly, increasing the cost of Thralls. 

I agree with the first change, in spite of disagreement from certain members of the community
Thralls are still very much capable of doing almost everything they could do before, moreover their staggering attacks help impede prey from getting away. 
All-the-while doing more damage. In exchange, they have actions bars when taking some actions. 
I feel this was a good change in terms of balance and giving the thrall a more unique roll amidst Antags.  

The second change, increasing the cost of Enthrall as you create more thralls. 
This placed a "Soft-cap" upon the number of thralls that a Vampire can have. 

In theory, this sounds like good balance. And I agree, It does sound reasonable. 
Personally, I never liked the change, and have vocally disagreed with the change time and again. 
Nevertheless, I allowed time to pass before attempting to create a discussion on the matter. 

As I have brought the subject up in-game and out, even to vampires actively playing--time and again players regard thralls as being "not worth it" or "Too costly"--they have even less incentive than before to bring players back. Instead opting to clone them, leave them to rot or destroy the corpse entirely. 
Thralls used to be a highlight of the Vampire Antag, for the player and Victim's alike. It was "Free antag" status--Something to do after you die. 

Aside from that, for those vampires who are looking to create thralls, they are now incentivized to utilize meta knowledge, bringing back only those who are "Worth it." Whereas before, thralls were (mostly) created indiscriminately. 

I can understand if the goal of the change was to avoid "station-wipes." Station wipes, which can cause players to leave the game, creating a sudden drop in server pop. However I would argue, vampires creating "Thrall armies" gives players things to do after death, keeping them in game.  
I feel that players crew-side and Antagonist both had a lot of fun facing off against each-other in "armies". 
Crew forming militia groups, huddling together in safety. Thralls roaming the halls in packs, seizing straggler humans. 

I reiterate, the goal of this thread is not to yell down any one developer to force a change. 
Merely, to gather the opinions of the player base on a change that I feel has been negatively received for months, and has not improved. 

Ultimately, If I were to recommend a half-way between the new change--Make the cost raise by a mere +50 blood-points per living thrall. 
It would seem meager at first, but over time as your army grows, that cost would be substantial. 
I say this with confidence, because running out of blood would occur naturally.
Thralls would consume any fresh corpses, whereas the desire to continue to enthrall players would not cease--The blood supply naturally expends.

[Cheffie]

I've always seen thralls as an investment for blood. Previously this was still the case even after the cost change in some aspects since you had effective friends to incapacitate people so you could drink them while still alive. But after the arm change thralls just aren't useful for the vampire to get more blood with just their arms as they do massive bleed (reducing blood gains) and often kill the target (further reducing blood gains).

This is an issue I tried to address with a PR but a Dev shot down the idea of allowing vampires to get full blood from not rotten corpses to allow for that same thrall/master synergy. Instead only allowing for only thralls to drain non rotten corpses which isn't ideal and doesn't make much sense thematically or mechanically and is unintuitive for newer players.

A few solutions to this problem:
1. to reduce the scaling cost. (So players can see thralls as cost effective thus use them and make more interesting rounds with dead player involvement)
2. allow for vampires to drink from dead non rotten targets as I orginally intended, accounting for emblaming fluid/holy water if present to act as a counter. (So thralls can help their master greatly with blood gains, while still reducing overall amount gained due to feeding thralls)
3. rework the thrall limb to be more focused on stamina damage and disorientate than bleed and damage (So thralls can incapacitate targets without killing or bleeding them massively)

Another thing that should be addressed is that create thrall and donate blood use the same ability therefore its become very very annoying to give blood to dying thralls since the cost of donating also scales.

[Lord_earthfire]

I think the thing you underestimate is how much thralls are a impediment to the vamp

Simply put, once a vampire creates thralls, stealth gameplay is out of the window.

Before, having a gas mask did hide most of a thralls obvious giveaways. Now them clicking doors attacks them, hard. Using any console/terminal gives out a very loud and audible moan (so e.g. no botany, science, bartending, chef thralls). Trying to pick up a tool near someone is a dead giveaway.

If you go thralls, you go loud. And the vamp is a stealth antags first and foremost. Couple that with a constant upkeep to keep the thralls at good max health and you run into problems in classic.

[Kotlol]

I think the thing you underestimate is how much thralls are a impediment to the vamp

Simply put, once a vampire creates thralls, stealth gameplay is out of the window.

Before, having a gas mask did hide most of a thralls obvious giveaways. Now them clicking doors attacks them, hard. Using any console/terminal gives out a very loud and audible moan (so e.g. no botany, science, bartending, chef thralls). Trying to pick up a tool near someone is a dead giveaway.

If you go thralls, you go loud. And the vamp is a stealth antags first and foremost. Couple that with a constant upkeep to keep the thralls at good max health and you run into problems in classic.

I am voicing the same opinion here.

Vampires are made for stealth and escape mostly. Their most damage attacks are to disarm and knock back, NOT MURDER.

The thrall on the other hand now is a dead giveaway of one and it feels like thralls have to rampage to make use of their talents or a powerful bodyguard.
Yet they are slow and clumsy, need upkeep and more.
When originally the Thrall was an undead minion you need to upkeep but could be your eyes and ears somewhere else. Have them setup a target and lure them into your trap... and when things go wrong... You have a thrall to back you up.
With all the changes now? You just have a thrall to back you up.. and it is very obivious then you are the vampire.

Old thralls were tanky and are just as good as crewmates, now they aren't.. they are slumbering corpses that HIT HARD.. with all the downsides of thralls and more.
And in my opinion it ruins the vampire expirence.
The moment you thrall someone.. is the moment you give up your stealth, a lot of blood you can use for defensive abilities and more. Just so SOMEONE ELSE can rampage technically.

This is why no one wants to thrall anymore, it gives away the vampire's existance, makes whoever is thralled either someone who has to rampage or barely do anything to not give away themselves.. while at any moment they can bleed and oust themselves anyway...and it's high cost and upkeep. Thus not worth it.

The change made makes sense gameplay wise.. but the thrall now goes against the idea of a VAMPIRE.
In my opinion.. Vampires want to drink as much blood as possible and killing only when nessarcy.
They don't want to enthrall a whole station cause who's gonna get fresh blood then? Cargo can only hold out for so long...
No vampires DO NOT want to end rounds, they wanna continune as long as possible for feeding.. and by doing this to the thrall.. it just sets up a "Do or die time"
The thrall now is like the Changeling going Monsteriosity form... but the thing is.. it ain't suppose to be a last ditch effort.

[Cheffie]

I agree that vampire is a stealth antag, but it seems that dev sentiment on the matter is that they aren't... I can also see where you are coming from with the 'forced to rampage' part of thralls but they aren't even good at that considering they lack the robust disarms and effective use of conventional weapons or even machines like rechargers, vendors, ect. Making them heavily reliant on the vampire leading to a dead giveaway as has already been said but also something with constant upkeep that doesn't really benefit the vampire in most cases.

Every time I see a thrall try attack anyone it gets stam crit or stunned and if they do manage to disarm someone (with damage) most of the time they can't grab what they drop to even just deny them their weapon. Not to mention inventory management as a thrall is horrific to do.

They also have the same issue that werewolves face with their attacks and screams being very loud and having extra carry distance but unlike werewolf doesn't have a strong kit or really attacks to back it up. Meaning if you do start killing someone in maints with the intent of feeding you will probably have people come and beat the snot out of you.

[Kotlol]

This is why players are suggesting a class system like the wraith has.

Vampires pretty much fall into this "grey middle area" unlike the changeling who can cover both stealth and rampage in one package.
Like wow I love changelings of how verstile their kits are in both classic and RP (especially RP, you got so much fun options)

The reason the vampire is suggested a "Class system" is because of their "Not really stealth, not really rampage" nature.
Thus in the suggestion forums someone suggested 3 types of vampires who I will boil down to (And probably incorrectly):
- Minions Minions Minions
- The stealthy in the shadows type
- I AM A BRICK.... 'OUSE!

And I'll be honest I don't mind these 3 as the vampire in it's current state is "Neutral" on all fronts. It can do stealth, it can do rampage, it can do minions, but.. Minions are hampered and stop the stealth, The rampage aspect is weak at best as they need to use whatever they can find (thus making them like every spy/thief) and stealth... is hampered by a lot of LOUD NOISES.

[StaringGasMask]

You're all glossing over the fact that thralls can still be hidden. Arms can be replaced with borg, and if they picked metal arms or green fingers as traits, they won't even lose their main arms. That makes them right as they were before, able to use machinery and pick items, while sacrificing the robust grab and extra damage.
Scaling costs mean less of the vampire making a thrall army and turning the mode into discount revs, so I'm not against that.

In this form, thralls are highly dependant on the knowledge of game mechanics and inner working, I'd say that making it more clear that it's the ARMS and not the fact that you're a thrall what makes you unable to act normally around machines and items, a lot of the problems would be gone

[Kotlol]

You're all glossing over the fact that thralls can still be hidden. Arms can be replaced with borg, and if they picked metal arms or green fingers as traits, they won't even lose their main arms. That makes them right as they were before, able to use machinery and pick items, while sacrificing the robust grab and extra damage.
Scaling costs mean less of the vampire making a thrall army and turning the mode into discount revs, so I'm not against that.

In this form, thralls are highly dependant on the knowledge of game mechanics and inner working, I'd say that making it more clear that it's the ARMS and not the fact that you're a thrall what makes you unable to act normally around machines and items, a lot of the problems would be gone

You're glossing around the other problems. Also replacing arms may work.... but that's just another step that wasn't nessarcy.

BUT.. you are forgetting wearing a mask and using other arms does not hide it as well.

If the thrall talks: "They gurgle"
If they scream: "They moan"

You are also forgetting they bleed on the floor wich is another dead give away.

While the increase in costs stops the "Discount Rev" approach. Wich I agree on.
It's the pay off that's the problem.

You maybe able to circumenvent the arms issue. But not the other ones. Let alone how is a vampire gonna replace all thralls arms with plant/robot arms without setting off alarms and not being a doctor/robotcist/botanist?

Thralls were already pretty obivious with the tells, but the cost/reward was lil too much in reward if played well.. but now the cost is too high for a reward. Thus the complaint. The old version wasn't good either... but new one just gives other problems.

If vampires are known for doing "Discount Rev" rounds... then tell me one thing... what else are they known for other wise? What threat is a vampire without the thralls? It turns out most people think they are more a nuisance otherwise as I seen a lot of people think the vampire is just weak and should be more focused on stealth or rampage.

Anyhow I said enough. In my opinion... the fix should be easy...
Have two types of thralls... the cheap thralls that are clumsy and are obivious and more expensive thralls who do not have the thrall arms and can blend in more.

That way those who want to make an army of rampage thralls can do it for cheap but are easily stopped by putting doors infront of them. And those who want a more stealthy ally approach can have the more expensive thralls so it doesn't turn into "Discount Rev round"

[StaringGasMask]

You're all glossing over the fact that thralls can still be hidden. Arms can be replaced with borg, and if they picked metal arms or green fingers as traits, they won't even lose their main arms. That makes them right as they were before, able to use machinery and pick items, while sacrificing the robust grab and extra damage.
Scaling costs mean less of the vampire making a thrall army and turning the mode into discount revs, so I'm not against that.

In this form, thralls are highly dependant on the knowledge of game mechanics and inner working, I'd say that making it more clear that it's the ARMS and not the fact that you're a thrall what makes you unable to act normally around machines and items, a lot of the problems would be gone

You're glossing around the other problems. Also replacing arms may work.... but that's just another step that wasn't nessarcy.

BUT.. you are forgetting wearing a mask and using other arms does not hide it as well.

If the thrall talks: "They gurgle"
If they scream: "They moan"

You are also forgetting they bleed on the floor wich is another dead give away.

While the increase in costs stops the "Discount Rev" approach. Wich I agree on.
It's the pay off that's the problem.

You maybe able to circumenvent the arms issue. But not the other ones. Let alone how is a vampire gonna replace all thralls arms with plant/robot arms without setting off alarms and not being a doctor/robotcist/botanist?

Thralls were already pretty obivious with the tells, but the cost/reward was lil too much in reward if played well.. but now the cost is too high for a reward. Thus the complaint. The old version wasn't good either... but new one just gives other problems.

If vampires are known for doing "Discount Rev" rounds... then tell me one thing... what else are they known for other wise? What threat is a vampire without the thralls? It turns out most people think they are more a nuisance otherwise as I seen a lot of people think the vampire is just weak and should be more focused on stealth or rampage.

Anyhow I said enough. In my opinion... the fix should be easy...
Have two types of thralls... the cheap thralls that are clumsy and are obivious and more expensive thralls who do not have the thrall arms and can blend in more.

That way those who want to make an army of rampage thralls can do it for cheap but are easily stopped by putting doors infront of them. And those who want a more stealthy ally approach can have the more expensive thralls so it doesn't turn into "Discount Rev round"

The moaning and gurgling were implemented before the thrall rework already, the only difference was that the "..." at the end wasn't present. In fact, before their names were PERMANENTLY changed to "Thrall Name Surnamey", which disallowed them from even speaking in the radio. Now they just have three dots at the end of their sentences and a different speaking verb.

The arm swaps weren't needed before, but honestly, if you have too much trouble by going to some secluded place with an optable like faint, or building one yourself with the ruck, there are other ways of antagging. Nobody forces you to enthrall, and nobody forces you to replace their arms. If you want a stealthy thrall you have options, if you have an unarmed focused thrall you have options too. Just because the game doesn't preset the stealthy option or you need to get some extra steps for the choice it doesn't mean that it's not there.

[RelentlessGarbage]

just get rid of vampires lmao

[Jakson]

I don't feel like writing a few paragraphs voicing the same opinion but yeah I think thralls are in an awful place right now. Vampire specializations sound dope as fuck but I think for now the thrall cost should remain static, while making the thralls themselves weaker, to define them as a dispensable zombie, which can be easily picked off but can rapidly snowball into big groups with the help of the vampire.

Also vampire/thrall station wipes were an absolute blast, like Chayot said, having small survivor groups and militias or command taking refuge in security/bridge has always been tons of fun, and they weren't common, so they weren't overused.

Until the specializations get properly developed I think we should revert the cost change, and keep the thrall arms, and maybe add a few other debuffs that can solidify a "mindless zombie" role.

[Jakson]

Personally I think this thread should be moved to Suggestions/Ideas to gain more traction, cause I heard some people discussing thrall balancing and I think more people look at the suggestions page than people who look at the general discussions page.

[Kotomata]

my personal opinion is that thralls should be weak expendable minions with below average combat capabilities
return blood cost to 100, lock thralls to 50 maxhp and like maybe 150 stamina (EXPERIMENTAL NUMBERS)
also revert thralls to having normal arms and have them speak normally so that they can actually be stealthy (keep the scream though its funny)
this way thralls are kind of garbage in actual fights because theyll die/get stunned very fast, so vampires are encouraged to use them for other purposes like access and ambushes
overall i believe changing them like this would have them line up more with the vampires mechanical concepts (stealthy hit and run antagonist that can amass minions)

[Chayot]

Jakson - Yeah, to this day, I'm still asking vampire players at round end, "Why didn't you thrall?" To which their reply is still "Not worth it." Or "Cost too high."
I don't know if this would be better suited to suggestions/Ideas. If you want to do it, go ahead and do it. I did not because I have never made a forum post.

Kotomata - 50hp is definitely way too low. Thrall strength scales with blood.
I think that is a noteworthy and distinctive trait--That they are capable of soaking up tons of damage.

One vampire player suggested today, that Vampires be Hard-capped--the cost reduced back to 100, but capped at a number between 3-5.
I think this is a much more agreeable alternative to the soft-cap of cost being raised as it is just too difficult to accumulate sufficient blood for thralls to be useful.

[Kotomata]

i should have stated outright but I also think the maxhp blood thing should be removed as well, it's fairly antithetical to my idea of "stealthy thralls" and in general i don't like thrall blood draining with how slow and boring it is. it's not like vamp where you're getting abilities, you just get an arbitrary number increase to your maxhp

the natural conclusion of combat thralls is that thralls are going to cost more as they are more and more useful in combat. i want thralls to be cheap so you aren't incentivized to ONLY thrall robust players, and in order for thralls to be cheap they have to be weaker.