Slight changes to security stuns

[Cheffie]

I play a lot of sec and I really feel like they are just too effective against pretty much every antag due to their stun gear being some of the best if not the best stuff available in most rounds. Beating most traitor gear and lethal options by a fair margin

I can't really put much thought into anything other than baton or taser since that's the only kit I use but I propose:

Taser stam damage ~70 -> ~50 reduce burst to 2 shots (+1 shot to stun) 
Baton stam damage 130 -> 90/80 (+1 baton to stun) reduce PU cost of the special? 
Reduce disorientate from the SMG
Not sure about the shotgun
Buff the alternate modes of the wavegun a bit they eat up so much PU

I think reducing security gears strength a bit will make for more interesting rounds as antags will be a little bit harder to deal with and will even the playing field. 

Id like to hear what people think for the other three main ranged weapons since I don't use them.

[UrsulaMejor]

You are not meant to be able to beat security in a straight on fight easily.

Traitors have the benefit of looking like normal crew. Security is highly identifiable by their gear. This means security is nearly always surprised in a confrontation, and traitors have first-move advantage.

If security and traitor gear were "even", then traitors would literally always win a fight of even skill.

[Kotlol]

You are not meant to be able to beat security in a straight on fight easily.

Traitors have the benefit of looking like normal crew. Security is highly identifiable by their gear. This means security is nearly always surprised in a confrontation, and traitors have first-move advantage.

If security and traitor gear were "even", then traitors would literally always win a fight of even skill.

To add, antagonists can PREPARE things before a fight.
Traps, areas, routes, medicine, buffs, mutations, weapons.

Antags control the FLOW of the shift as many people say.
Security can prevent, but they gotta FIND something to prevent, but 90% of the time Security REACTS to antagonists.

Security can never prepare for a fight unless the ANTAGONIST declares it or SHOWS IT SELF.

A prepared Antag vs a unprepared Sec member... the sec member will most likely lose.
Antags like traitors are suppose to GET IN AND GET OUT. If security swarms you, you taken too long.

These are all things you can do.

Security isn't running around with mutations you secured as a genecist, Security is running around with the triple meth you got to reduce stuning, Security has no way of countering your freedom chips, security has a hard time deal with rogued AI's and Borgs and you. Security doesn't know if you wire tap em either.

There are bountless strategies to use against security and trust me... as someone who mains detective.. TRAITOR DETECTIVES are the BANE of security. They are the most dangerous of the traitors due to their standard kit being MORE DEADLY then a normal sec officer.
And also their gadgets gives A traitor detective more advantage over a security member.
And their Det-Net goggles allows them to access security's secmate from any location AND work faster then security setting people off and on arrest. (Wich means it's nexxt to impossible to stop a detective turning themselves off arrest and turning all of security ON ARREST, they are just faster and not stuck in a remote location)
And that's just the Detective's standard kit. The gun, goggles, det-net's make the det a formidable foe.
BUT then add any traitor kit ONTOP of the det's... and suddenly... the detective can truely rampage and cause more problems for security then any antagonist can be himself.
A good Traitor Det, can shut down all of security to the point if there is No HoS or NTSO... Security needs to be ontop of the det asap or be overwhelmed with problems.

Anyhow... this nerf is pointless. Traitors thrive in chaos and some traitors are better then others, but if you know your tools and routes, security will have a hard time deaing with your shennigans, but mostly TRAITORS ARE STEALTH ANTAGONISTS! NOT RAMPAGE ONES!

[Lord_earthfire]

Anyhow... this nerf is pointless. Traitors thrive in chaos and some traitors are better then others, but if you know your tools and routes, security will have a hard time deaing with your shennigans, but mostly TRAITORS ARE STEALTH ANTAGONISTS! NOT RAMPAGE ONES!

While i personally agree that traitors are stealth antags, i think even for rampage ones and prepsted traitors stun barons are way overtuned. The only reason rampage antags sonehow work is because they are able to keep people at distance or cancel stuns. So they just have build in hard counters for stuns instead of stun batons being in a balanced place.

We know the shitshow that happens when antags get their hands on stun batons because of this.

Beyond all that, stimulant drugs and SMES are in a bad place. Even if you prepare as any antag, you maybe can take a single stun baton hit more. And while i think that is a difference like night and day, i think that it's not compareable to the preparation you need to do. The only exception are secret drugs and these are not meant to be made regulary.

Personally i think stam mixes and SMES need to be far more effective to combat stun batons. Antags amd crewmember in general need to be somewhat rewarded for their preparation. That isn't the case if they go for smes/stimulant drugs currently.

[UrsulaMejor]

Csabers are not balanced for long, protracted fights where everyone knows you're the traitor. They're balanced for the idea that you will whip them out, kill someone, and then run away before anyone shows up.

Alternatively, they are balanced such that you are good enough to overcome the handicap. Rampages are not meant to be easy. Rather, they are meant to be near impossible for all but the most skilled players.

[Cheffie]

You are not meant to be able to beat security in a straight on fight easily.

Traitors have the benefit of looking like normal crew. Security is highly identifiable by their gear. This means security is nearly always surprised in a confrontation, and traitors have first-move advantage.

If security and traitor gear were "even", then traitors would literally always win a fight of even skill.

Maybe even was the wrong word, security will still by far have the upper hand against antags due to having alerts, barriers, and utility gear. And from experience if I get attacked by an antag even if I'm alone and they surprise me, they will only win if they also have stuns or overwhelming force, stuns normally being security gear.

I've also seen single mindhacked officers depopulate entire stations with just stuns and cuffs so there must be an issue here somewhere

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To add, antagonists can PREPARE things before a fight.
Traps, areas, routes, medicine, buffs, mutations, weapons.

Security can also prepare with medicine, buffs and mutations and I see it happen often, security with x-ray is not a fun thing to play against for the non-human antags.

But also even with preparation your chances of killing just one lone officer is low since it can only take them two clicks to have you on the ground and one click to call security over there with no delay, even as antags meant to win in 1v1 fights. Barrier and taser is just that good. speaking from experience.

Freedom implants are very easy to counter since as far as I'm aware they don't drop grabs and you can just keep them stunned to remove it due to 30 second stuns. you can certainly make good use of them but they aren't as good as you say.

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Anyhow... this nerf is pointless. Traitors thrive in chaos and some traitors are better then others, but if you know your tools and routes, security will have a hard time deaing with your shennigans, but mostly TRAITORS ARE STEALTH ANTAGONISTS! NOT RAMPAGE ONES!

The nerf is still very valid, stuns aren't only used by security and they still massively overperform. Even with a reduction in stam damage due to how stam works most people will will go down in one baton or two taser bolts due to the natural tendency to run away from an officer trying to arrest you/antag trying to kill you. There is also still disorientate on all security stuns which makes it trivial to hit a follow-up shot or baton.

Stuns will still be very strong and desirable but just a tiny bit weaker on the stam, which again normally will still cause fast take downs due to actions using stam.

[Cheffie]

Changed the title since its not just nerfs