NTSO... Unlocked by pressing the Alarm?

[Kotlol]

This is a "small idea" and probaly a terrible one, but I keep hearing that people on the classic styles get valid hunted by NTSO's that join early and can't do much about it.

I do agree the NTSO is one of the MOST POWERFULL security members on the security team, being able to do more then a HoS in that regard.
BUT... it only appears if there is already a HoS on the station.

Now in my opinion it doesn't make sense the NTSO comes to the station for no reason. "Everything is fine, let's send the biggest guns we have to the station"
It is suppose to appear when shit hits the fan and security needs to access the armory and such. Mostly since i compare the NTSO to a SWAT member. You don't have someone in SWAT gear walking around the station going: "Good day gentlemen, I am here to ticket you for littering" It just sets a weird in universe presidence.

So.. I recommend that NTSO cannot be chosen until... "Someone in command hits the emergency button in the bridge" 
I can already hear someone say: "BUT... that will make dead players respawn as one...and it's whitelisted so it becomes even harder to get one out."

Well why not add a prompt to the game that allows any player who is whitelisted and NOT an antag to get the prompt to respawn as a NTSO.
Or for lore reasons: "The player is already NTSO, but when the alert went off had to get on duty and change outfits and such"
Heck the person who says yes might get a space drop or something to obtain the NTSO gear to do their duty as NTSO.

I don't think this change is the best idea and I am just putting it out there as an idea, but from what I can "theorize" it will do the following things:
For positives:
+ The alert button becomes more valuable. Making it's alarm mean a NTSO will appear soon. Great for Antags and fellow security players to know.
+ NTSO's cannot be patrolling from the start, thus giving making sure the most expirenced security member with alot of guns aren't roaming the halls every shift.
+ It allows whitelisted players to play other jobs without the fear security gets overwhelmed and wishing they rolled HoS or NTSO. Now if it happens... The NTSO can simply spawn in freely and those players can CHOSE to clean the mess.
+ NTSO will no longer be locked behind needing a HoS on the base 1st.
+ Possible attempt at intercepting the NTSO spawning in and stealing their gear as Antags??

For negatives:
- Press button, spawn NTSO, profit. (It will be considered a penalty if you press the button while nothing is going on. AS IT SHOULD!! )
- People fighting over NTSO spawn (It kinda already happens...but it's RNG wich white listed player gets it)
- Security or Command are more willing to spawn the NTSO thus hitting the button early. 
- The button might be targeted by Antags and pressed if a penalty is installed on it for miss-use. (This can be fixed with only Command/Security IDs can activate it though)
- Players complaining the new system isn't fair since it can turn 1 player into a security one that they didn't see coming due to that bloody button. Right after they wiped out Security and such.

So... what do you guys think of the idea? Would this make the NTSO more interresting? Make it worst? Discuss away.

[DioChasek]

On rp not a terrible idea. On classic it will get hit in the first 30 seconds of every round regardless.

[Chatauscours]

On rp not a terrible idea. On classic it will get hit in the first 30 seconds of every round regardless.

It is a bad idea both on RP as well:
- We would need to establish some SOP to when to push the button, and SOP = Bad
- There is a lot of possible NTSC RP/Gimmicks. Making this a button role would take it away.
- Who in their sane mind would wait for an hour just so they maybe, not each round even can latejoin for a role.
- Press to win button, would be very hard to balance.
- The occasionnal clown/staffie breaking into the bridge to push the funni button.

It is also a bad idea as it would give the NTSC an even more militaristic/lonewolf aspect, something devs are trying to get away from (hence the rename).

[Nihisohel]

relevant thread

https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=15959

somewhat old, a lot of ideas though
you can bump it if you want though

[nefarious6th]

"Who in their sane mind would wait for an hour just so they maybe, not each round even can latejoin for a role."

I mean, this is really interesting. If someone whitelisted wants to join the round late as security, Sec Off is on the table, as is assistant. Playing Sec doesnt always have to be playing it at the highest most authoritative level available to you every round you possibly can.

Nile suggested the button idea earlier. I think it's about direction at this point, whether the NTSC is meant as an "uh oh send additional support" role or someone with more time to do stuff like teach and assist. My leaning is against button in either server scenario; changing the access to a role people can validhunt in to a role people can validhunt in only at a specific time doesnt do as much as I see changing the talk and culture around NTSC and potentially the gear loadout would. It's an interesting idea mechanically and narratively but as a gameplay item, I think the needs of a round have a tendency to move too fast for the kind of deliberation necessary for something like this.

[Nihisohel]

"Who in their sane mind would wait for an hour just so they maybe, not each round even can latejoin for a role."

I mean, this is really interesting. If someone whitelisted wants to join the round late as security, Sec Off is on the table, as is assistant. Playing Sec doesnt always have to be playing it at the highest most authoritative level available to you every round you possibly can.

Nile suggested the button idea earlier. I think it's about direction at this point, whether the NTSC is meant as an "uh oh send additional support" role or someone with more time to do stuff like teach and assist. My leaning is against button in either server scenario; changing the access to a role people can validhunt in to a role people can validhunt in only at a specific time doesnt do as much as I see changing the talk and culture around NTSC and potentially the gear loadout would. It's an interesting idea mechanically and narratively but as a gameplay item, I think the needs of a round have a tendency to move too fast for the kind of deliberation necessary for something like this.

i kind of think that security needs somewhat of a overhaul on its culture to a degree, leaning more of following set situations in guidelines rather than have it mostly freeform like we have now
my alarms idea was set to that direction, and when i get to it, probably the spacelaw that id make at some point
(its been like, a year since i promised a new spacelaw too)

---

On rp not a terrible idea. On classic it will get hit in the first 30 seconds of every round regardless.

this can easily be remedied by rules
such as no power gaming or meta gaming

[nefarious6th]

taser's dinky, sig lethals are nuts, I cant master the clock correctly for use after doing a taser sig opener and always feel like 4 clock shots after sig is Too Far. baton throw is pretty high risk, high reward. I wish the stuns weren't so hit or miss on ntsc, but that's part of the reason a gear revamp would also make me happy aside from a more clear role; the ability to more consistently intervene in standard arrest would be neato.

[Nihisohel]

taser's dinky, sig lethals are nuts, I cant master the clock correctly for use after doing a taser sig opener and always feel like 4 clock shots after sig is Too Far. baton throw is pretty high risk, high reward. I wish the stuns weren't so hit or miss on ntsc, but that's part of the reason a gear revamp would also make me happy aside from a more clear role; the ability to more consistently intervene in standard arrest would be neato.

ive been looking at TGs jobs for a bit and my eyes sorta wandered towards the warden after looking at the curators job page for a hot second,

ive been kinda thinking that it would be nice to actually have a coordinator, but at the same time, its also just redundant on goonstation when rounds dont last as long and are faster paced in comparison
i also dont really want to make security to be more of a powerhouse as it is, it already averages at around 8ish players

[Ikea]

ERT roles (which this change would make ntso into) suck, contradictorily they actually tend to prolong emergencies instead of shortening them. Currently rampages get boring and at a certain point anyone who cares will be dead will stay dead, so you might as well call shuttle. By having a response to shit being fucked, you end up adding a cool unique boss battle that you get by doing so/victory lap/source of more loot, so now that rampage is not so boring, so you might as well call shuttle later.

[Kotlol]

I like how the debate became: WHO WANTS TO LATE JOIN!? No one.. that's why I suggested a respawn mechanic..

Overall it's mixed results. I am surrpised.. but this is pretty neat and getting good results.

[Jakson]

I’ve posed a nearly identical idea in the discord server and a lot of admins shut the idea down, which sucks, admins don’t want emergency response team mechanics for the same reasons Ikea mentioned.

However I’ve still always wished it was a mechanic, because playing NTSO is always the MOST fun when you join and the power is out and the entire security team is thralled; the main problem though is getting people to join, since it’s white listed and at most there’s only 2-3 of whitelisted people in one game.

Kotlol’s idea isn’t bad, and could definitely work, though an idea I’ve posed in the past is to remove the whitelist, and have it just pull 3-ish players from the ghost pool. Once a certain percentage of the crew is dead, it would automatically make a centcomm announcement warning the station that we’re sending three random idiots with plastic guns onboard. Give them a pop up that tells them they are not an antagonist, and their main goal is to just call the shuttle, and whatever else you might do in an emergency response moment.

[Kotlol]

Kotlol’s idea isn’t bad, and could definitely work, though an idea I’ve posed in the past is to remove the whitelist, and have it just pull 3-ish players from the ghost pool. Once a certain percentage of the crew is dead, it would automatically make a centcomm announcement warning the station that we’re sending three random idiots with plastic guns onboard. Give them a pop up that tells them they are not an antagonist, and their main goal is to just call the shuttle, and whatever else you might do in an emergency response moment.

Your idea sounds like how we do "Random ghost critter spawn batches"
Where you can spawn as:
-Roboroaches
-Changeling Limbs (without a hivemind)
- Firebots
- Bucketbots

This one would be:
- 3 idiots are permadead, here comes GOONSQUAD to check things out.

[Theunsolved-puzzle]

I think this would be a nice thing to see

[NightmarechaMillian]

The biggest issue with a respawn is that you get multiple, and you get people as ghosts waiting around not having any fun hoping someone presses the funny button- neither one of these are super good- as is, I can only remember one round in the last full week where sec have had any problems dealing with antags on goon1.

I do think the NTSC could use an overhaul in the spawn conditions, though. Here's my suggestion:

Add a program to the communications console and sec console that allows any secoff or head of staff to request a NTSCs from centcomm.

1) This program only lets the caller call if of the following conditions are met:
It is not revs or nukies
AND:
Less than a third of the security team are alive
More than a fourth of the crew on the manifest are dead
Less than 2/7ths of the heads of staff remain
Less than 1/6th of the starting antags are dead


2) The program than checks to see how many NTSCs are eligible to be spawned, by checking how dire the situation is given the above parameters. The absolute max would be three.

3) Next, this program sends a respawn alert to any eligible ghosts who are whitelisted, asking them if they would like to respawn. If the max number of NTSCs are spawned within sixty seconds, great, there's your response team, clean up the antags and call the shuttle.

4) If there are still eligible NTSCs to be spawned, allow whitelisted latejoiners to connect to the round as an NTSC proportional to the acceptable slots.

This prevents your shitters from breaking in and pressing the funny "spawn secoff" button at minute 2, but also ensures sec isn't breathing too heavily down the crew's necks and the response is appropriate to the situation.