04-02-2023, 02:11 PM
Admin: Leahthetech
Server: Goon1
Date + time: 16-3-2023 around 13:00 CET (UTC+1)
My perspective of the events leading up to the Admin PMs:
Admin PMs:
As i will argue in my upcoming responses, i think it is inaccurate to claim i had insulted them for 5 minutes. When reading back the chat afterwards, the only instance of me insulting them i could find was: "they are being an ass". For context, the "they" is the QM, but this was said to a borg while explaining what was going on.
For fairness sake, looking back now, i have to admit that my "nuke the budget" remark, while kinda intended that way, did not help de-escalate the situation.
As you can read below, Leah reacted to this with: "Their language is a separate issue". Just to be clear, i fully agree that them breaking rule 4 in no way gives me the right to treat them differently or punish them in any way, i believe this is something admins should deal with. The reason i brought it up here was to point out that the QM did not seem to be hessitant to insult us.
On a personal note; The insult the QM used happens to be an insult which would be capable of hitting me on a personal level. That being said, i can confidently say it didnt, that i just ignored it and did not treat them differently than if they had used any other insult. If i hadn't gotten the admin PM, i assume i would have adminhelped it once the situation would have been over.
Again, sadly my log doesnt show timestamps, nor does it show any locations, but i hope the actual logs are able to verify that when we showed up at cargo there was indeed no one around. Given that it was lowpop, and given that i had access, i dont believe it was out of the ordinary for me to assume there were no qms and proceed to order it myself, especially since it was such a small order.
Leah's response (above), almost makes it sound to me, like she thinks i walked into cargo ready to flash and cuff anyone that got in my way, and that i chose some QM that happened to be there as my target. I genuinely think that what i said in my response is true, that if they had started a conversation instead instantly choosing violence, things would have gone completely differently. Not always, but quite often i request small orders even when i have access (i play regional director quite often), assuming there are QM around. When i want bigger orders (think 8k+, which i do quite often for botanical reasons), i tend to get cargo access if i dont have it, and do some quick requisition so i bring in more than i take out.
I dislike the use of the word bullying here. I had the QM in cuffs so they were basicly at my mercy at that point. I didnt abuse that power at all. I only flashed them when restraining and releasing them, i didnt give them a swirlie or anything, i didnt even fart on them. Unless the fact i had them in cuffs in and of itself is considered bullying (in which case it would be odd to say "dragging them around in handcuffs and bullying them"), i just don't see it. On another personal note; i believe bullying isn't a word that should be thrown around lightly. While i'm obviously not claiming i was being nice to the QM, i dont believe it went so far that bullying would be an accurate description.
This response from Leah is the main reason i'm writing this post.
First of all i wanna say that i'm a huge fan of self-reflection, i like to think i'm open to feedback, and that i try to change my behaviour when needed. So if there actually is a pattern of me showing a lack of respect to new players, that i'm evidently blind to, i would really appreciate if this could be shown to me, so i can actually change this behaviour. To be clear, i am not saying that this is something im owed, it is just a request. In other posts i've seen the metaphor used that players are like guests in the house that is this server. Since i've never been banned, nor intend to get banned, i assume i'm still welcome in the house, but if i do show some unwanted behaviour, i would think it would be helpful to everyone to help me change it.
That being said, and i really hope this doesn't detract from my previous point, i can honestly say i really do not recognize myself in her characterization. That isn't to say i think i'm some kind of angel, i can remember moments i'm not proud of. I've had some admin PMs before, but i dont believe it has ever been a regular occurrence.
The ingroup-outgroup way of thinking, that i'm accused of here, is something i really dislike, or any form of elitism for that matter. In general i like to think im welcoming to new players. I regularly teach people stuff, which tend to be newer players too. I like seeing people pick up new stuff, i like being helpful, and on an arguably more selfish note, i honestly enjoy doing it, especially if the other person is eager to learn. When i just came back from my break, i needed some time to get back into things, learn what had changed, but at this point i'm back to "getting distracted" into teaching folks genetics for a whole round. I do believe this ingroup-outgroup mentality does exist with some people, to the point where i was very hessitant to apply for mentor, until an admin pretty much told me i should.
On the flipside, i dont feel like i treat "named players" better by default either. There are plenty of people that i think would be considered "named players" who's playstyle doesn't quite line up with mine to say the least. That isn't to say i disrespect these people because of that, there is plenty of room within the game and the rules for people to have different playstyles, and it keeps the game interesting. I like to think that in general i try to show everyone some basic respect, until i'm given a reason not to do so, and even at that point, try to stay proportional and within reason.
Ofcourse if you play this game for a while you do get to know the regulars, some of which i'd even say have become friends, a few even close friends. Sometimes i spend rounds just hanging out with people like that, sitting, or usually lying around somewhere (or lately discussing packet nerdery with a fellow nerd). I don't believe this automatically means i treat them better. While i think it makes sense in the game to defend people when you are already hanging out with them, i dont believe i give people i'm friendly with (let alone any "named player") preferential treatment in situations where it would make no ingame sense to do so. For example if i would find 3 corpses and 1 of them was a close friend, i truely believe i would always find a crate and drag all 3 bodies to the cloner instead of just my friend. I believe there are plenty of examples of me doing so in the past.
After my last reply (above) i didn't receive another response. The "When + How 2 Submit Admin Feedback" page mentioned talking to admins on discord as something you can try, and while im usually hessitant to directly PM admins on discord, i did send Leah a message on discord (i think the day after the above interaction, it was also quite long) hoping we could personally work this out. I didn't get a response to that either and as far as i remember we've had no interaction since. I dont mind sharing the message i sent her, to show it was also written in good faith, if needed.
Synopsis:
I'm very much aware that if an admin tells me to stop doing something, i should stop doing it. Going back to the house metaphor i used earlier, i also believe i don't have to agree with the rules, i just have to follow them. The problem i have with the above interaction is that Leah is telling me to stop doing multiple things that i honestly believe i am not doing. I cant stop doing things that i am not doing in the first place:
1. Me having the QM in cuffs for 5 minutes.
As i've argued above i personally think that cuffing the QM was a reasonable response given the context, i dont think i abused the fact i had them in cuffs at any point and i didnt hold them any longer than needed to avoid them attacking us. That being said, if this would have been the only thing, "i dont have to agree with the rules, i just have to follow them" would have applied. I would have thought it was strange, that it didnt lign up with my experience on the server, but i would have accepted it and moved on.
2. Me insulting the QM for 5 minutes.
To me this is just clearly not the case, since the logs show that i only ever used 1 insult, which wasn't even calling them an ass, but me saying they were being an ass.
3. Me bullying the QM for 5 minutes.
As i've argued above i dont think its fair to describe my behaviour as such.
4. Me having a complete lack of respect for anyone that isn't a "named player".
As i've said, this is my main issue, as i do not recognize myself in this characterization at all.
To be very clear i don't have anything against Leah personally. I do have to admit that i had gotten the feeling that there was some tension between us in previous interactions (see extra information below), although at the time i wasn't sure if that was just in my head. The above interaction honestly kinda shocked me, and the only reason for it that i can think of, is that Leah somehow has gotten a wrong impression of me and let that color her judgement of me. As someone who has been in admin-like roles before, i can say from personal experience how easy it is to have confirmation bias affect your view of a person.
Moving forward i hope that, if Leah does indeed have a wrong impression of me, that this can be cleared up. Obviously that isn't to say she has to like me or anything. Whatever the case, all i am after, is to be judged fairly.
Logs:
Extra information:
In previous drafts of this post i discussed a few more interactions i had with Leah in quite some detail. This did however make the post much longer than it already is in it's current form, so instead i have decided to only briefly describe one. If needed i don't mind sharing the others too, or going into more detail. I don't have any logs or exact dates/times for the below interaction, since at the time i didn't think it was needed to save these.
I believe the day before the interaction this post is about, i at some point got an admin PM from Leah asking if i could explain why i had splashed beaker of deathchems onto a player the round before. I found this a bit strange, since i could only remember one instance of me doing so, in which case i expected the logs to clearly show i did nothing wrong. Since it was the only time i was near any chems that round i concluded it had to be about that and started writing a response. While i was in the middle of doing this, Leah sent me a message asking if i was gonna respond (or something similar), which i remember thinking was rather soon as i didn't feel like i had made her wait for long yet, nor did i have any intention of doing so. I sent her a quick message saying i was writing a response, then finished the actual response, after which she replied that it checked out.
Since i assume the person i was hanging out with and basicly defending in this encounter would be considered a "named player", it did make me wonder in retrospect whether this encounter might have added to her view of me too.
Server: Goon1
Date + time: 16-3-2023 around 13:00 CET (UTC+1)
My perspective of the events leading up to the Admin PMs:
Admin PMs:
Quote:Admin PM from LeahTheTech
Can I ask why you're dragging a random QM around in handcuffs?
< Click to Reply >
Reply PM to-LeahTheTech: Clown lost his shoes, they were sad, so i wanted to order him some shoes, and later some orange cables to turn the shoes orange. At some point the qm walked in and instantly started grabbing me and the clown and throwing us out. We then moved to the lower area and they following, kept grabbing and throwing, incl throwing the clown on the sell belt, so i grabbed a flash and some cuffs to restrain m while we did our business. When u sent the message i was actually releasing m.
Admin PM from leahthetech
Yeah not sure they deserved to be dragged around in handcuffs and insulted for 5 minutes for trying to throw you out of their department for trespassing.
< Click to Reply >
As i will argue in my upcoming responses, i think it is inaccurate to claim i had insulted them for 5 minutes. When reading back the chat afterwards, the only instance of me insulting them i could find was: "they are being an ass". For context, the "they" is the QM, but this was said to a borg while explaining what was going on.
Quote:Admin PM to-leahthetech (Discord): With all due respect, i feel like they did most of the insulting, also they escalated at every step while i tried to de-escalate. I had to go grab the flash and cuffs too, its not like i was eager to use them.
For fairness sake, looking back now, i have to admit that my "nuke the budget" remark, while kinda intended that way, did not help de-escalate the situation.
Quote:Admin PM to-leahthetech (Discord): if im not mistaking they even called us disabled, or something along those lines
As you can read below, Leah reacted to this with: "Their language is a separate issue". Just to be clear, i fully agree that them breaking rule 4 in no way gives me the right to treat them differently or punish them in any way, i believe this is something admins should deal with. The reason i brought it up here was to point out that the QM did not seem to be hessitant to insult us.
On a personal note; The insult the QM used happens to be an insult which would be capable of hitting me on a personal level. That being said, i can confidently say it didnt, that i just ignored it and did not treat them differently than if they had used any other insult. If i hadn't gotten the admin PM, i assume i would have adminhelped it once the situation would have been over.
Quote:Admin PM from leahthetech
Their language is a separate issue, you barged into someone's department and flashed them, before dragging them around in handcuffs and bullying them. It's little wonder they got upset at you, and they were entirely within their rights to try to kick you out in the first place.
Admin PM to-leahthetech (Discord): again, with all due respect "you barged into someone's department and flashed them" that is not what happened. There was no quartermaster when we walked in, nor did i have a flash on me when i walked in or any intention to use one. If they, when they walked in, had started a converation instead of instantly going for grabs this while situation would have gone different. Also we didnt hack in i have access to cargo. I'm very willing to admit when im wrong, but i assume the logs will tell you all [rest didnt show in my log, paraphrasing as best as i remember:] i've been telling you is accurate.
Again, sadly my log doesnt show timestamps, nor does it show any locations, but i hope the actual logs are able to verify that when we showed up at cargo there was indeed no one around. Given that it was lowpop, and given that i had access, i dont believe it was out of the ordinary for me to assume there were no qms and proceed to order it myself, especially since it was such a small order.
Leah's response (above), almost makes it sound to me, like she thinks i walked into cargo ready to flash and cuff anyone that got in my way, and that i chose some QM that happened to be there as my target. I genuinely think that what i said in my response is true, that if they had started a conversation instead instantly choosing violence, things would have gone completely differently. Not always, but quite often i request small orders even when i have access (i play regional director quite often), assuming there are QM around. When i want bigger orders (think 8k+, which i do quite often for botanical reasons), i tend to get cargo access if i dont have it, and do some quick requisition so i bring in more than i take out.
I dislike the use of the word bullying here. I had the QM in cuffs so they were basicly at my mercy at that point. I didnt abuse that power at all. I only flashed them when restraining and releasing them, i didnt give them a swirlie or anything, i didnt even fart on them. Unless the fact i had them in cuffs in and of itself is considered bullying (in which case it would be odd to say "dragging them around in handcuffs and bullying them"), i just don't see it. On another personal note; i believe bullying isn't a word that should be thrown around lightly. While i'm obviously not claiming i was being nice to the QM, i dont believe it went so far that bullying would be an accurate description.
Quote:Admin PM from leahthetech
Again, that's not relevant. I'm telling you that dragging someone around in handcuffs and bullying them for 5 minutes for legitimately trying to throw you out of their department is not acceptable. I've noticed you having a complete lack of respect for anyone that isn't a "named player" and frankly it's shit. Stop doing it.
< Click to Reply >
Admin PM to-leahthetech (Discord): I'm very curious how you came to conclude " I've noticed you having a complete lack of respect for anyone that isn't a "named player" and frankly it's shit.". This could not be further from the truth and i think it's quite something to drop on someone.
This response from Leah is the main reason i'm writing this post.
First of all i wanna say that i'm a huge fan of self-reflection, i like to think i'm open to feedback, and that i try to change my behaviour when needed. So if there actually is a pattern of me showing a lack of respect to new players, that i'm evidently blind to, i would really appreciate if this could be shown to me, so i can actually change this behaviour. To be clear, i am not saying that this is something im owed, it is just a request. In other posts i've seen the metaphor used that players are like guests in the house that is this server. Since i've never been banned, nor intend to get banned, i assume i'm still welcome in the house, but if i do show some unwanted behaviour, i would think it would be helpful to everyone to help me change it.
That being said, and i really hope this doesn't detract from my previous point, i can honestly say i really do not recognize myself in her characterization. That isn't to say i think i'm some kind of angel, i can remember moments i'm not proud of. I've had some admin PMs before, but i dont believe it has ever been a regular occurrence.
The ingroup-outgroup way of thinking, that i'm accused of here, is something i really dislike, or any form of elitism for that matter. In general i like to think im welcoming to new players. I regularly teach people stuff, which tend to be newer players too. I like seeing people pick up new stuff, i like being helpful, and on an arguably more selfish note, i honestly enjoy doing it, especially if the other person is eager to learn. When i just came back from my break, i needed some time to get back into things, learn what had changed, but at this point i'm back to "getting distracted" into teaching folks genetics for a whole round. I do believe this ingroup-outgroup mentality does exist with some people, to the point where i was very hessitant to apply for mentor, until an admin pretty much told me i should.
On the flipside, i dont feel like i treat "named players" better by default either. There are plenty of people that i think would be considered "named players" who's playstyle doesn't quite line up with mine to say the least. That isn't to say i disrespect these people because of that, there is plenty of room within the game and the rules for people to have different playstyles, and it keeps the game interesting. I like to think that in general i try to show everyone some basic respect, until i'm given a reason not to do so, and even at that point, try to stay proportional and within reason.
Ofcourse if you play this game for a while you do get to know the regulars, some of which i'd even say have become friends, a few even close friends. Sometimes i spend rounds just hanging out with people like that, sitting, or usually lying around somewhere (or lately discussing packet nerdery with a fellow nerd). I don't believe this automatically means i treat them better. While i think it makes sense in the game to defend people when you are already hanging out with them, i dont believe i give people i'm friendly with (let alone any "named player") preferential treatment in situations where it would make no ingame sense to do so. For example if i would find 3 corpses and 1 of them was a close friend, i truely believe i would always find a crate and drag all 3 bodies to the cloner instead of just my friend. I believe there are plenty of examples of me doing so in the past.
After my last reply (above) i didn't receive another response. The "When + How 2 Submit Admin Feedback" page mentioned talking to admins on discord as something you can try, and while im usually hessitant to directly PM admins on discord, i did send Leah a message on discord (i think the day after the above interaction, it was also quite long) hoping we could personally work this out. I didn't get a response to that either and as far as i remember we've had no interaction since. I dont mind sharing the message i sent her, to show it was also written in good faith, if needed.
Synopsis:
I'm very much aware that if an admin tells me to stop doing something, i should stop doing it. Going back to the house metaphor i used earlier, i also believe i don't have to agree with the rules, i just have to follow them. The problem i have with the above interaction is that Leah is telling me to stop doing multiple things that i honestly believe i am not doing. I cant stop doing things that i am not doing in the first place:
1. Me having the QM in cuffs for 5 minutes.
As i've argued above i personally think that cuffing the QM was a reasonable response given the context, i dont think i abused the fact i had them in cuffs at any point and i didnt hold them any longer than needed to avoid them attacking us. That being said, if this would have been the only thing, "i dont have to agree with the rules, i just have to follow them" would have applied. I would have thought it was strange, that it didnt lign up with my experience on the server, but i would have accepted it and moved on.
2. Me insulting the QM for 5 minutes.
To me this is just clearly not the case, since the logs show that i only ever used 1 insult, which wasn't even calling them an ass, but me saying they were being an ass.
3. Me bullying the QM for 5 minutes.
As i've argued above i dont think its fair to describe my behaviour as such.
4. Me having a complete lack of respect for anyone that isn't a "named player".
As i've said, this is my main issue, as i do not recognize myself in this characterization at all.
To be very clear i don't have anything against Leah personally. I do have to admit that i had gotten the feeling that there was some tension between us in previous interactions (see extra information below), although at the time i wasn't sure if that was just in my head. The above interaction honestly kinda shocked me, and the only reason for it that i can think of, is that Leah somehow has gotten a wrong impression of me and let that color her judgement of me. As someone who has been in admin-like roles before, i can say from personal experience how easy it is to have confirmation bias affect your view of a person.
Moving forward i hope that, if Leah does indeed have a wrong impression of me, that this can be cleared up. Obviously that isn't to say she has to like me or anything. Whatever the case, all i am after, is to be judged fairly.
Logs:
Extra information:
In previous drafts of this post i discussed a few more interactions i had with Leah in quite some detail. This did however make the post much longer than it already is in it's current form, so instead i have decided to only briefly describe one. If needed i don't mind sharing the others too, or going into more detail. I don't have any logs or exact dates/times for the below interaction, since at the time i didn't think it was needed to save these.
I believe the day before the interaction this post is about, i at some point got an admin PM from Leah asking if i could explain why i had splashed beaker of deathchems onto a player the round before. I found this a bit strange, since i could only remember one instance of me doing so, in which case i expected the logs to clearly show i did nothing wrong. Since it was the only time i was near any chems that round i concluded it had to be about that and started writing a response. While i was in the middle of doing this, Leah sent me a message asking if i was gonna respond (or something similar), which i remember thinking was rather soon as i didn't feel like i had made her wait for long yet, nor did i have any intention of doing so. I sent her a quick message saying i was writing a response, then finished the actual response, after which she replied that it checked out.
Since i assume the person i was hanging out with and basicly defending in this encounter would be considered a "named player", it did make me wonder in retrospect whether this encounter might have added to her view of me too.