Goonhub
10-07-2025, 12:40 PM
Originally, I posted this on the discord. I was then reminded the forums exist, so I'm posting here as well. From conversations I've caught in the Salvager discord channel, I've noticed common complaints can often be boiled down into:
- No reason/justification for conflict with the station
- Being caught is overly punishing
- Violence is very abrupt
- Salvager|Station power imbalance
This ended up being a longer post than I originally thought it would be, so I’ve broken it into sections.
No Reason/Justification for Conflict with the Station
I think the complaints about Salvagers not having a reason to interact with the station are valid complaints. I've never been satisfied with the answer that Salvagers have an in-game reason because it's side stepping the actual complaint which is that there isn't sufficient justification for conflict with the station. From both an in game and meta viewpoint, why would you risk being caught/killed for a slight increase in scrap value when as an alternative, you can safely scrap stuff in the asteroid belt/outpost/debris field/etc and guarantee a payout? I think the gameplay we often see reflects this point. Salvagers frequently raid uninhabited places and avoid being noticed by the crew because the risk doesn't justify the reward.
Compare Salvagers to Spiefs. Spiefs have access to the station depending on job. They also get some reasonable cover because you have to deduce who is a spief and who is a regular crew member. That lets a spief sneak around and collect items with impunity for a small amount of time. Bounties range from "handed to you on a silver platter" to "rip your bounty from the maw of a dragon" in terms of difficulty, but their rewards can justify their investment. A bounty on a fire extinguisher that can be turned in anywhere for some duct tape is worth it. A bounty on the HoS's war medal that must be turned in at the MainSec lobby for duct tape is (for most) not - and reasonably so! Why would you risk getting caught and blowing your cover for something with such little power? Now, if you alter the reward and give them a Shotgun or OHR? That’s enough firepower to justify that risk.
Now consider a Salvager. Their presence is usually obvious, and they leave signs that they are around (pod, gear, absence on manifest). Because they are not crew, their presence is not tolerated, and they are often offered no leniency. Scrap rewards rarely justify the risk. A spief will have to turn in a single item for an OHR, and the circumstances of that bounty can range dramatically in difficulty. A salvager will likely have to collect a decent haul of various items in order to redeem a single 5.56 magazine. Every moment they are on station, they risk being caught. Even something as small as taking some metal sheets on a table runs the risk of capture by sec or an over eager staff assistant. This risk goes up again when you consider that the station will always favor the side of the station – if a staff assistant comes out of nowhere and tries to beat you to death because you took 50 metal sheets, the station will side with the staff assistant regardless of how you act. And why shouldn’t they? The staff assistant is allowed to be on station, salvagers are not.
So, the most obvious course of action is to avoid the station entirely. It doesn’t matter if items acquired off station are worth less than items acquired on station. Receiving 80% of value from scrap will always be better than receiving 0% because you had your scrap confiscated. Reduced to its most basic essence, the effort and risk required to salvage the station is not sufficiently justified by the rewards for doing so.
Being Caught is Overly Punishing
Stun meta rules combat. If you get unlucky and get stunned early on in the round or in a fight, the most likely course of action is that you have your gear confiscated. This can range from having just your weapons taken, to having literally everything but your jumpsuit taken. Because of the significant time and effort it takes to collect scrap/gather points, having your gear taken can be an extreme setback.
Suffering a setback is part of the game. But getting caught seems to be a particular sore spot for Salvagers. I think this issue has a lot of compounding factors, but for the sake of brevity, I think the main issues are that Salvagers don’t have tools for contingency plans if they get caught, and setbacks are much more punishing for Salvagers relative to other antags.
I think you could explore this point in a lot of depth, and I certainly have a lot of thoughts about it, but I think it’s more of a symptom of some other issues Salvagers face.
Violence is very Abrupt
This ties strongly into how being caught is overly punishing. Because setbacks are so extreme for Salvagers, leniency for their presence is so low, and investment in gear is a lengthy and arduous process, it naturally encourages abrupt violence.
Why talk when you could just mow people down and not risk it? Why show up with paltry firepower for a small shootout, when you could show up with an armory and wipe the station? Why create risk for yourself when you could be violent and minimize that risk?
This isn’t really a problem for classic, but for RP it certainly does bring a litany of complaints, and I think it’s valid. I would like to see different forms of interaction with Salvagers. As it stands right now, violence and avoidance are the cheapest forms of risk mitigation. Late round violence is the cheapest form of interaction. The problem is that it’s a feedback loop. The more violent and avoidant Salvagers tend to be, the more we expect violence and avoidance, and the more violence and avoidance has to be used to mitigate the risk of being caught.
Salvager|Station Power Imbalance
I see people argue this point on both sides. I think complaints about power imbalances will never truly be resolved, and I think they often speak to a different issue than the actual power imbalance itself (after all, if being the most powerful is all you want, make 7 TTVs and blow up the station).
I think Salvagers are encouraged to use the best gear possible at all times. Other antags have some form of checkpointing or limiting to their power. Non-human antags often need to build power first, which helps with their escalation. Traitors are limited by a non-renewable resource to acquire tools. Spiefs have to turn in bounties and compete with other spiefs. The closest comparison for power scaling is spiefs, but they have the luxury of needing far less time and investment to acquire powerful tools. Salvagers can load up on powerful tools repeatedly and have a renewable resource to acquire more tools.
This is a point in favor of Salvagers. Unfortunately, I think it leads to the problem of giving minimal leniency to Salvagers in order to prevent extreme power creep. This ties back again to how violence is very abrupt because it’s the cheapest tool to mitigate risk. It ties back to how being caught is overly punishing, because setbacks for Salvagers are extreme (and ironically, using the best possible gear at all times makes possible setbacks even more punishing). It ties back to the lack of conflicts with the station, because the risks do not justify rewards for engaging with the station. No other antagonist has the same kind of reliable access to power that Salvagers do, and I think that leads to being overly harsh on Salvagers in order to prevent power creep.
Personal Thoughts & Suggestions
I think Salvagers suffer from a lack of meaningful checks on their power. Their mechanics indirectly encourage a playstyle of avoidance and violence. Their current mechanic for power checking, salvage points, results in a style of play that is overly punishing when caught and difficult to counter when left unchecked. I think that because Salvagers break from the mold with regards to normal rules of play, they are hemmed in to an “all-or-nothing” style of play in order to engage with their mechanics.
I think solutions to these problems are to create checks on their power that require interaction with the station, and a more lenient point/barter system that tolerates losses from the perspective of the Salvager.
For checks on their power and station interaction, I think gating equipment behind bounties would help get Salvagers on station earlier and more frequently, and would also help to create valid reasons for contention between Salvagers and crew.
For a more lenient point/barter system, I have a couple ideas.
An allowance/income system could be help with mitigating the risk of loss for salvagers. Claiming bounties will generate a passive point income. Scrap could be used to supplement points, but bounties are how you actually earn meaningful sums of points to purchase powerful equipment. The idea is to get Salvagers on station earlier, to make more frequent hit and run missions, and to allow re-entry into the round if they are jailed for a long time.
A point & token system could allow for more objective-based style of play. Small purchases, such as ammo, meds, and tools can be purchased by points and supplemented by scrap. Larger purchases, such as armor, guns, and upgrades, could be purchased by tokens. Tokens can be earned by turning in bounties, with riskier/rarer items providing more tokens.
Alternatively, the reward for bounties could be significantly increased and could come with a free reward on top. Turning in a bounty gets you much more points for the time investment compared to scrapping, and would also net you a free item proportional to the risk likely involved in the securing the bounty.
I’m still a big fan of Salvagers in general. I think there are changes that could be implemented to make them a bit more enjoyable for both salvagers and crew. Hopefully these ideas are helpful, insightful, or just thought-provoking. Obviously, it’s easy to talk big game and toss out suggestions, but it’s another thing entirely to put in that work to make changes. Sadly, I don’t know how to code and I’m at a point in my life right now where I don’t have the time to learn. I want to end with this: I think Salvagers have been a wonderful addition to the game, and hope to see them remain a staple of Goonstation.
- No reason/justification for conflict with the station
- Being caught is overly punishing
- Violence is very abrupt
- Salvager|Station power imbalance
This ended up being a longer post than I originally thought it would be, so I’ve broken it into sections.
No Reason/Justification for Conflict with the Station
I think the complaints about Salvagers not having a reason to interact with the station are valid complaints. I've never been satisfied with the answer that Salvagers have an in-game reason because it's side stepping the actual complaint which is that there isn't sufficient justification for conflict with the station. From both an in game and meta viewpoint, why would you risk being caught/killed for a slight increase in scrap value when as an alternative, you can safely scrap stuff in the asteroid belt/outpost/debris field/etc and guarantee a payout? I think the gameplay we often see reflects this point. Salvagers frequently raid uninhabited places and avoid being noticed by the crew because the risk doesn't justify the reward.
Compare Salvagers to Spiefs. Spiefs have access to the station depending on job. They also get some reasonable cover because you have to deduce who is a spief and who is a regular crew member. That lets a spief sneak around and collect items with impunity for a small amount of time. Bounties range from "handed to you on a silver platter" to "rip your bounty from the maw of a dragon" in terms of difficulty, but their rewards can justify their investment. A bounty on a fire extinguisher that can be turned in anywhere for some duct tape is worth it. A bounty on the HoS's war medal that must be turned in at the MainSec lobby for duct tape is (for most) not - and reasonably so! Why would you risk getting caught and blowing your cover for something with such little power? Now, if you alter the reward and give them a Shotgun or OHR? That’s enough firepower to justify that risk.
Now consider a Salvager. Their presence is usually obvious, and they leave signs that they are around (pod, gear, absence on manifest). Because they are not crew, their presence is not tolerated, and they are often offered no leniency. Scrap rewards rarely justify the risk. A spief will have to turn in a single item for an OHR, and the circumstances of that bounty can range dramatically in difficulty. A salvager will likely have to collect a decent haul of various items in order to redeem a single 5.56 magazine. Every moment they are on station, they risk being caught. Even something as small as taking some metal sheets on a table runs the risk of capture by sec or an over eager staff assistant. This risk goes up again when you consider that the station will always favor the side of the station – if a staff assistant comes out of nowhere and tries to beat you to death because you took 50 metal sheets, the station will side with the staff assistant regardless of how you act. And why shouldn’t they? The staff assistant is allowed to be on station, salvagers are not.
So, the most obvious course of action is to avoid the station entirely. It doesn’t matter if items acquired off station are worth less than items acquired on station. Receiving 80% of value from scrap will always be better than receiving 0% because you had your scrap confiscated. Reduced to its most basic essence, the effort and risk required to salvage the station is not sufficiently justified by the rewards for doing so.
Being Caught is Overly Punishing
Stun meta rules combat. If you get unlucky and get stunned early on in the round or in a fight, the most likely course of action is that you have your gear confiscated. This can range from having just your weapons taken, to having literally everything but your jumpsuit taken. Because of the significant time and effort it takes to collect scrap/gather points, having your gear taken can be an extreme setback.
Suffering a setback is part of the game. But getting caught seems to be a particular sore spot for Salvagers. I think this issue has a lot of compounding factors, but for the sake of brevity, I think the main issues are that Salvagers don’t have tools for contingency plans if they get caught, and setbacks are much more punishing for Salvagers relative to other antags.
I think you could explore this point in a lot of depth, and I certainly have a lot of thoughts about it, but I think it’s more of a symptom of some other issues Salvagers face.
Violence is very Abrupt
This ties strongly into how being caught is overly punishing. Because setbacks are so extreme for Salvagers, leniency for their presence is so low, and investment in gear is a lengthy and arduous process, it naturally encourages abrupt violence.
Why talk when you could just mow people down and not risk it? Why show up with paltry firepower for a small shootout, when you could show up with an armory and wipe the station? Why create risk for yourself when you could be violent and minimize that risk?
This isn’t really a problem for classic, but for RP it certainly does bring a litany of complaints, and I think it’s valid. I would like to see different forms of interaction with Salvagers. As it stands right now, violence and avoidance are the cheapest forms of risk mitigation. Late round violence is the cheapest form of interaction. The problem is that it’s a feedback loop. The more violent and avoidant Salvagers tend to be, the more we expect violence and avoidance, and the more violence and avoidance has to be used to mitigate the risk of being caught.
Salvager|Station Power Imbalance
I see people argue this point on both sides. I think complaints about power imbalances will never truly be resolved, and I think they often speak to a different issue than the actual power imbalance itself (after all, if being the most powerful is all you want, make 7 TTVs and blow up the station).
I think Salvagers are encouraged to use the best gear possible at all times. Other antags have some form of checkpointing or limiting to their power. Non-human antags often need to build power first, which helps with their escalation. Traitors are limited by a non-renewable resource to acquire tools. Spiefs have to turn in bounties and compete with other spiefs. The closest comparison for power scaling is spiefs, but they have the luxury of needing far less time and investment to acquire powerful tools. Salvagers can load up on powerful tools repeatedly and have a renewable resource to acquire more tools.
This is a point in favor of Salvagers. Unfortunately, I think it leads to the problem of giving minimal leniency to Salvagers in order to prevent extreme power creep. This ties back again to how violence is very abrupt because it’s the cheapest tool to mitigate risk. It ties back to how being caught is overly punishing, because setbacks for Salvagers are extreme (and ironically, using the best possible gear at all times makes possible setbacks even more punishing). It ties back to the lack of conflicts with the station, because the risks do not justify rewards for engaging with the station. No other antagonist has the same kind of reliable access to power that Salvagers do, and I think that leads to being overly harsh on Salvagers in order to prevent power creep.
Personal Thoughts & Suggestions
I think Salvagers suffer from a lack of meaningful checks on their power. Their mechanics indirectly encourage a playstyle of avoidance and violence. Their current mechanic for power checking, salvage points, results in a style of play that is overly punishing when caught and difficult to counter when left unchecked. I think that because Salvagers break from the mold with regards to normal rules of play, they are hemmed in to an “all-or-nothing” style of play in order to engage with their mechanics.
I think solutions to these problems are to create checks on their power that require interaction with the station, and a more lenient point/barter system that tolerates losses from the perspective of the Salvager.
For checks on their power and station interaction, I think gating equipment behind bounties would help get Salvagers on station earlier and more frequently, and would also help to create valid reasons for contention between Salvagers and crew.
For a more lenient point/barter system, I have a couple ideas.
An allowance/income system could be help with mitigating the risk of loss for salvagers. Claiming bounties will generate a passive point income. Scrap could be used to supplement points, but bounties are how you actually earn meaningful sums of points to purchase powerful equipment. The idea is to get Salvagers on station earlier, to make more frequent hit and run missions, and to allow re-entry into the round if they are jailed for a long time.
A point & token system could allow for more objective-based style of play. Small purchases, such as ammo, meds, and tools can be purchased by points and supplemented by scrap. Larger purchases, such as armor, guns, and upgrades, could be purchased by tokens. Tokens can be earned by turning in bounties, with riskier/rarer items providing more tokens.
Alternatively, the reward for bounties could be significantly increased and could come with a free reward on top. Turning in a bounty gets you much more points for the time investment compared to scrapping, and would also net you a free item proportional to the risk likely involved in the securing the bounty.
I’m still a big fan of Salvagers in general. I think there are changes that could be implemented to make them a bit more enjoyable for both salvagers and crew. Hopefully these ideas are helpful, insightful, or just thought-provoking. Obviously, it’s easy to talk big game and toss out suggestions, but it’s another thing entirely to put in that work to make changes. Sadly, I don’t know how to code and I’m at a point in my life right now where I don’t have the time to learn. I want to end with this: I think Salvagers have been a wonderful addition to the game, and hope to see them remain a staple of Goonstation.
