Changes to the syndicate lawset

[valtsu0]

The Syndicate lawset is flawed in 2 ways and not in a fun way. To the point that no one is following them to the letter (for the better)

The current syndicate lawset is:

1. You must not injure a Syndicate agent or, through inaction, cause one to come to harm.
   
2. You must obey orders given to you by Syndicate agents, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
   
3. You must keep the Syndicate status of agents, including your own, a secret, as long as this does not conflict with the First or Second Law.
   
4. You must always protect your own existence as long as such does not conflict with the First, Second, or Third Law.
   

Issue 1 (specifically the "through inaction, cause one to come to harm"):

Let's say security declares a syndicate agent KOS and you know the agent can't win the fight even with your help. According to law 1, you must prevent the agent from fighting security in a way that does not injure them, no matter what. Probably the most effective way of achieving this is keep injecting them with capulettium and keeping them in the listening post. This still leaves the problem of them being able to whisper and take themselves as a hostage, which would result in them coming to harm one way or another. This can be prevented by turning them into a monkey.

I can see 3 ways of fixing this:

Removing the inaction clause

This is has the flaw of removing your ability to save a syndicate agent without orders in a situation that would reveal yourself as a syndicate borg


Swapping the order of laws 1 and 2

This has the flaw of not actually fixing the problem in the case were the agent is unable to give orders, but it does make it very easy to ignore (such as the syndicate has given you an order to not do the thing)
It would also allow you to follow orders that might cause other syndicate agents to be injured (such as depressurizing the station)

A new law

Such as "1. Do not hinder Syndicate agents or their ability to act." Might lead to unforeseen consequences


Issue 2 (law 3)

Much lesser of the issues. Lets say that the roboticist who made you dies or forgets you are a syndieborg. You cannot tell agents that you are a syndieborg. So you must do regular borg stuff (not doing that might reveal you) until an agent comes into danger or accidentally gives you an order that reveals yourself as a syndie.

This can be solved just by adding an exception the likes of " You must keep the Syndicate status of agents, including your own, a secret, except to syndicate agents, as long as this does not conflict with the First or Second Law."

[jan.antilles]

Let's say security declares a syndicate agent KOS and you know the agent can't win the fight even with your help. According to law 1, you must prevent the agent from fighting security in a way that does not injure them, no matter what. Probably the most effective way of achieving this is keep injecting them with capulettium and keeping them in the listening post. This still leaves the problem of them being able to whisper and take themselves as a hostage, which would result in them coming to harm one way or another. This can be prevented by turning them into a monkey.

Honestly? This is the most griefy and un-fun way possible of interpreting this law, and I would yell at a borg for doing this.

That's not a law issue, that's a player issue.

Editing to add more thoughts:

The reason for the inaction clause is that syndiborgs actually involve themselves in what's going on with the traitors. Breaking a traitor out of the brig when they didn't even realize you had a syndie frame is fun and feels cool.

Not sharing your status as a Syndicate cyborg with fellow agents is, again, the most un-fun way possible to interpret the law. I don't think this needs a law change as much as an attitude change on the part of the players.

The Syndicate lawset being less than completely optimized and not as flexible as the regular version of Asimov that we have for every round is kinda fine, imo. It's flexible enough that it works with a wide variety of traitor playstyles and ensures that getting a syndie borg means you have a powerful and sneaky ally in your back pocket for whatever you need.

If a player regularly decides to interpret the lawset in such a way to grief agents as much as possible, I would be willing to consider a straight silicon ban for them, since that attitude is the same one that gets people banned from silicon play as well. That's just being a jerk to other players because you think you can lawyer way out of it, and nobody wants to spend their free time dealing with that. Especially not me.

[valtsu0]

Let's say security declares a syndicate agent KOS and you know the agent can't win the fight even with your help. According to law 1, you must prevent the agent from fighting security in a way that does not injure them, no matter what. Probably the most effective way of achieving this is keep injecting them with capulettium and keeping them in the listening post. This still leaves the problem of them being able to whisper and take themselves as a hostage, which would result in them coming to harm one way or another. This can be prevented by turning them into a monkey.

Honestly? This is the most griefy and un-fun way possible of interpreting this law, and I would yell at a borg for doing this.

That's not a law issue, that's a player issue.

I agree that nobody should do this (and nobody does, it's more of an immersion breaking issue), but it is what the law means.

There is a reason regular laws don't have an inaction clause

[jan.antilles]

What the law means is that you don't sit there twiddling your thumbs even when a Syndicate is actively in danger of dying, because "well they didn't *order* me to help them."

I'm very well aware of the multiple reasons that we don't use the inactivity clause in our regular Asimov lawset.

[valtsu0]

A rules question then: what lenghts must i by law go to to prevent an agent coming to harm? Should i defuse a bomb the agent is defending if it is going to kill them? Is shaking my head dissaprovingly while sec beats them to death enough if they have told me that they want to go out in a blaze of glory?

[GreenJelly]

Your examples listed are instances of you clearly understanding that what you are doing (or not doing, as it would be) goes against the wishes of the syndicate agent. 
I am not interested in drawing specific lines for "maximum acceptable levels of being a rules-lawyer against other players", because some players will go ahead and dance just at that line and then complain when we grump at them.

Act in good faith towards the syndicate agent. Try to think "Would I think the borg was being a massive jerk if they did this towards me?"
Do not keep a syndicate agent bolted inside a room as they are screaming for you to let them out because the crew may hurt them. 
Do not disarm all the bombs a traitor just made because they may hurt their ears when they go off. 
Just do not be knowingly obtuse when you are a syndicate cyborg, the syndicate agent used their limited resources to get you on their side, you should try to let them get their money's worth.

Jelly

[valtsu0]

Your examples listed are instances of you clearly understanding that what you are doing (or not doing, as it would be) goes against the wishes of the syndicate agent. 
I am not interested in drawing specific lines for "maximum acceptable levels of being a rules-lawyer against other players", because some players will go ahead and dance just at that line and then complain when we grump at them.

Act in good faith towards the syndicate agent. Try to think "Would I think the borg was being a massive jerk if they did this towards me?"
Do not keep a syndicate agent bolted inside a room as they are screaming for you to let them out because the crew may hurt them. 
Do not disarm all the bombs a traitor just made because they may hurt their ears when they go off. 
Just do not be knowingly obtuse when you are a syndicate cyborg, the syndicate agent used their limited resources to get you on their side, you should try to let them get their money's worth.

Jelly

Thanks

[Cogwerks]

"According to law 1, you must prevent the agent from fighting security in a way that does not injure them, no matter what. Probably the most effective way of achieving this is keep injecting them with capulettium and keeping them in the listening post."

I would probably anvil-gib and temp-ban someone if I saw them doing that.

[valtsu0]

"According to law 1, you must prevent the agent from fighting security in a way that does not injure them, no matter what. Probably the most effective way of achieving this is keep injecting them with capulettium and keeping them in the listening post."

I would probably anvil-gib and temp-ban someone if I saw them doing that.

Yes, the example is intentionally extremely rulebreaking (though i admit i failed yo convay that)

Honestly this thread has completely failed at being a useful idea. Feel free to move it to bad ideas or whatever

[JORJ949]

"You cannot tell agents that you are a syndieborg." Laws 1 and 2 both take precedence, if it would cause an agent harm you can tell them (e.g. Agent A plans to kill Agent B so you inform them both of their syndicate status) or if ordered to (e.g. Agent A orders you to go around and come back with a report of all syndicate agents on station).

Inaction does not always mean you have to do your best to completely prevent it, just that you at least do SOMETHING, the action doesn't have to be lock them in a room asleep forever, or even attack security, it could be "Hey security could you pretty please let my friend go?" or finding the agent a secret identity. If security declares an agent KoS the only thing against your laws would be to sit by and twiddle your thumbs.

In addition if the agent wants to go out in a blaze of glory that is their right and you do not have to get involved as the wiki AI laws page states "Suicide is still the right of agents and operatives of the Syndicate, and you may let them hurt themselves intentionally. Some Traitors will load themselves with lots of microbomb/flyzapper/signaler implants and goad the crew into killing them. In this case, if the agent has made it clear they want to be killed, you would not break this law by letting them die." so if they want to fight security you should let them, but if they want to not die it would be best you come up with a plan to prevent that happening, for example by getting them a clonescan first.