Current chemistry's main probable issue

[colossusqw]

When i see people talking about what they think chemistry's main source of trouble currently is, one thing that sometimes is brought up is it's being "directionless" in the sense that you don't really have an end goal. I don't really think that's it, since there are more departments which are mainly directionless in similar ways than chemistry, but see much less discussion of the same sort, the biggest example being botany. Both botany and chemistry have thrived by allowing players a lab-like space to mix and match different things into whatever they can, and pushed players towards gimmicks and experimenting with the systems, and that makes for an excelent "directionless" experience.

For me, at least, the issue is not that chem is directionless, more so that the time investment and effort to reward curve is so shifted that a lot of the unique chemicals and interactions between them just don't feel worth it even for experienced players, much less for newer ones. Currently players have the stacked disincentive of having to commit a good chunk of a round's time to even explore the systems, as well as being punished by underwhelming or wasted results that require even more time commitments to recuperate than most chems just don't seem worthy to anyone that hasn't already been testing with them.

The rounds are an hour and a half long, if things don't go south beforehand, and nowadays a newer scientist is going to have a though time finding it worth it to spend a good chunk of that time making a chem they might not even be able to, and may just get 100 units of, that after a few minutes of testing, will be gone(ADDENDUM). That can be really demotivating to old, and expecially new scientists that are most likely going to be slower and risk messing up in ways that just wipe chunks of progress.

ADDENDUM - (one of the things that botany alleviates, by ontop of being much more lenient on creation times, being able to secure the production of any chemical instead of just realizing it once, which allows botanists to spend much more time actually interacting with the station at large, and actually makes any ridiculous plants they want to parade around feel worth it and interesting)

I'm not here just to mope and bawl about a department i like a lot(and still put a lot of effort into having fun with) and wholeheartedly believe is still a lot of fun from time to time, so here is my question to anyone that might want to give an answer: What can help making chem exploration and commitment to gimmicks feel more rewarding, less punishing, and overall just more "worth it"?

[Kotlol]

I do not think chemistry is the most directionless position in all of the game.
That one goes to Toxins.

My biggest issue with chemistry is it's super complicated with a lot of hilarious results.
But it all takes time....

If I want to make a chem, I will take all my shift time perfect the chem. But if someone wants a chem from me... and I have no idea how to do it. It would take me 10 mins to get it going.
The right chem mixes and tempratures and everything takes so much time and actions.... So if someone asks stypic of me. I'd look it up and take my time making it.
Someone wants cleaner chems? Takes me a lot of time.

If a veteran is around 9/10 will they take the order and be done with it in 2 mins.

The only department that I am slower with requests is botany.. but that's cause botany is a slow start.
Same with ranchers.

Chemistry is litterly your knowledge of it gives you a huge boost as well as macros you preset in game.
And this is what I think the biggest problem with chemistry lies.

It has to be both supportive and doing your own thing.
Unlike other departments... doing your own thing will improve the station and atomsphere. (Even you silly weed growers of botany, you get to sell your weed for cargo)

But chemistry? Unless it's a chem that does something big, mostly no one cares.

And then we got toxins... why would anyone want to do toxins unless you want to make bombs or big burns?
Engineering don't need you to develop the biggest burns, they do that themselves.
We don't need the biggest booms... that's for antagonists.
So if a scientist goes to do toxins.. you are branded a possible antagonist by default.

With chemistry.. it's something goofy, useful or painful.

Overall.. the problem lays that a lot of science basically is there for experimentation... but if you want each department ranked for usefulness for the station it goes like this:
- Artsci (makes money , has trackable stats)
- Chemistry (it's a swis army knife of things)
- Telesci (Can be used to save people and have fun Azones with loot that helps the station)
- Robots/DWAINE programming (Forgot about this one? Most do, but it always benefits the station or makes antagonising things.Least used since it's very limited and very difficult to get into)
- Toxins (Doesn't benefit anyone on station... it favors antagonism.)

[JOELED]

I do not think chemistry is the most directionless position in all of the game.
That one goes to Toxins.

(snipped)

And then we got toxins... why would anyone want to do toxins unless you want to make bombs or big burns?
Engineering don't need you to develop the biggest burns, they do that themselves.
We don't need the biggest booms... that's for antagonists.
So if a scientist goes to do toxins.. you are branded a possible antagonist by default.

(snipped)

- Toxins (Doesn't benefit anyone on station... it favors antagonism.)

Toxins was given a gameplay loop with the crystal bazaar which people have seemed to respond pretty positively to and I've seen many rounds lately with toxins only being used for that and no longer being immediately pinpointed as "hey antag department in use".  I've been toying with the idea of a similar but distinct system for chemistry that falls somewhere between the artlab and toxins gameplay loops so there's reward for them as well as for cargo.  I think it could be fun

[Lord_earthfire]

My issue with chemistry is explicitely the missing direction.

The chemistry process is rewarding and fun. Figuring synthesis routes and optimising them is a whole minigame that is rewarding and interactive.

Now the problem: noone needs your chems

The process to create chemicals can be as interesting as you want, if the reward simply is not there.

Of course, for a gimmick or antaggery, the chemucals are worth it.

And thst is the problem: if you don't have a gimmick prepsred ir are a non-amtag, you got hardly a reason to sit in chemistry.

Toxins was given a gameplay loop with the crystal bazaar which people have seemed to respond pretty positively to and I've seen many rounds lately with toxins only being used for that and no longer being immediately pinpointed as "hey antag department in use". 

This is the way, basically.

Give chemistry a reward for doing chemicals that is NOT just the chemical they tried to make. May it be player appreciation (because the REALLY need them on a regular basis, look at botany-chef interaction) or credits. Heck, people love seeing a number go up, so money would be a great way to go. Everything else comes on its own.

If i sit in botamy and am out of gimmicks, i can at least do the chef's request, break the economy with syreline/money trees and flood medbay with white weed (imo omnizine is the only medchem medbay appreciates nowadays). I cannot do the same with chemistry.

[meaow589]

Chemistry if you not have your goal in the round you will go directionless.
That why sometime when I do chemistry I ask QM for some chem contract.
Chemistry can be useful in many round if you really want to help other department. For example you can make plant nutrient for botanist, you can make chem for engine, grapheme for upgrade structure department. Chemistry is department that has many thing to do but if you don’t have motivate to do it.you might struggle in this department. I think many role has this problem like chemistry for example chef not know what we should cook,botanist not know what should plant.which is normally problem when you play in sandbox game.
But in my opinion I disagree about directionless I have goal to do chem in chemicompile.and hope someday I can teach people with it.about this topic discussion I think it Pfizer we have more motivation by increase demand for chemistry should be great some of the ideas were in med-sci discussion before that I really like. For example Make chem quest.that reward in game like a QM or add some chem to market ship.
By the way about toxin research I normally do toxin when I’m not antag and I try to use it for legal way like cooling plasma for singulo, and some people might said engineer can do it too but it use more effort.and money for Crystal pressure is really great if it hot it only 1 bomb can safe station budget so much

[Emimiyu]

Tbh, we do have chem req contract, but QM rarely would even ask chemistry to make them stuff and would rather pick easy contract than... waiting for chem to do their job.

I guess, maybe chemistry need something like artlab and toxin where they could just send things that make money to cargo without having to wait for requisition to show up.

[Glamurio]

Colossus makes some excellent points that I don't see brought up more often. As a novice chemist myself, dedicating a good chunk of the shift time to figuring out a chem that might not even work or could be wasted with no easy to way to recuperate my loss is not only not worth it, but also devastating. We have some really cool chems but it takes so long to make them, that even if you get a result, it's just never worth the time invested. Ideally, macros were supposed to alleviate that, but the main issue for some chems is procurement, not just ease of production.

I actually don't think the aimlessness is the primary issue, though it does add to it. The big thing that would, in my mind, make it more fun to engage with, is if I had any guarantee that if I put 30+ minutes developing a chem, that I have some sort of safety net for the production of it. Maybe some sort of "chem duplicator", although that's a slippery slope. Otherwise, simplifying either some recipes or making it easier to obtain specific chems might alleviate the frustration as well.

On the subject of Toxin, I actually vehemently disagree. While it has no direction, it is actually much easier and satisfying to work with. Part of that is because if your mix is not satisfying, you can always pick up the pieces and adjust things relatively easily, you don't lose your entire mix if your TTV ends up borked, unlike in chemistry. Also, pressure crystals. You can sell pressure crystals at specific explosion values for money, I think saying "you are an antagonist if you use Toxins" is reductive.

[Lefinch]

Tbh, we do have chem req contract, but QM rarely would even ask chemistry to make them stuff and would rather pick easy contract than... waiting for chem to do their job.

I guess, maybe chemistry need something like artlab and toxin where they could just send things that make money to cargo without having to wait for requisition to show up.

Speaking from the other end: Every single time I've tried to run a chem request it's been met with deafening silence. This might be a "chicken or egg" problem where because the requests aren't common, requests aren't heard, and because requests aren't heard, requests are thus not common. 

But I suppose you could do what Kondaru's artlab does and let them contribute direct to the budget by sending those chem requisition contracts direct to chemistry. That way, they know if there's a potential goal to fulfil themselves rather than waiting on a QM to notice or elect to try and fill it.

[cheekybrdy]

This reminds me of the pharmacy/chem/bar thread (https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=22364) we had earlier but I'll say my point on direction here. With chem being a third of the places to get chems with its major demand in medical being stopped by pharma and bar being tided for most things that'd end up as a petty request, chem only really has a place for bulk chems and has severe competition with the normally always open pharma and bar in smaller amounts and bulk chems aren't really needed anyway.

[mintyphresh]

I actually really like the "chem duplicator" idea. A chem dispenser that can be "programmed" with a whitelist of chemicals, you pour 100u of the stuff in there and then it has an internal reservoir that replenishes at, say, 1 unit per second. But that wouldn't really solve the problem. The entire game feels designed to make chemistry as bypassable as possible; every department that needs chemistry can either do it themselves, purchase what they want from the QM, or just ask the competing bar / pharmacy to make it. Thinking about the recent addition of material plating to TEG pipes that pretty much eliminated graphene requests... grr

I don't think there's many ways that we can increase demand for chemicals among the crew, which is why I started that forum post about nerfing pharma and the bar to make asking Chem more attractive. If there was some way we could make chemistry significantly *faster,* and not just higher quantity, than the other two, that might be a step towards actually making it a significant part of the workings of the station.

---

What's really frustrating to me is that botany *is* allowed to have a monopoly. Botany is sitting on a cool 400u of each fertilizer roundstart with the ability to order 200u more for cheap, AND the ability to grow their own ammonia and potash, which completely bypasses the slow and unwieldy Chem synthesis route... but every PR I've made that gives bartenders ways to get fruit juice gets shut down for cutting Botany out of the loop. It really feels like there's a double standard on which departments get to be needed.

[Lord_earthfire]

I actually don't think the aimlessness is the primary issue, though it does add to it. The big thing that would, in my mind, make it more fun to engage with, is if I had any guarantee that if I put 30+ minutes developing a chem, that I have some sort of safety net for the production of it.

What about side-products that you can turn somewhat easy into intermediates?