Complaint Jan.Antilles, Goon1, 26/09/23 approx 04:00 GMT+1

[MedEdbay]

Admin: Jan.antilles (I believe)
Server: Goon1
Date+time: 26/09/23 approx 04:00 GMT+1
Synopsis: Round starts, I get thrown and locked in the genetek scanner by the other geneticist, who activates a dozen only bad mutations, which I ask to get removed as I'm being poisoned. Nothing happens, so I yell at the staffie that just came in to call sec. They're not AFK, just apparently blubbering by the bystander effect. I get turned into a monkey and I'm passing in and out of consciousness, and die. I think maybe I just got unlucky with an antag right next to me. But then the geneticist clones me. Seeking to vent some questions at the both of them, I get back in the room (as I'm a monkey and can't talk to SEC without getting a translator). The geneticist then tries to shove me and lock me in the scanner again, I narrowly grab a translator and yell a tirade at the both of them for their actions. They act dumb, don't say a word or defend their actions, and I can't leave the room because the geneticist and staffie stripped me of my gear and ID in the room after they killed me, assuming they're both antags (which I consider unlikely in the extreme based on kill+clone but going through the trouble of doing only bad genes I'm doubtful), I attack them, they kill me, and dump my corpse until it gibs.

Unbeknownst to me, apparently the line I crossed was saying the word incel. Fine, I know that things of sexual nature are crossing the line. God forbid an admin sees anyone say "roll to seduce" rolling the D20 with dungeoneer or at the DM table. I get bwoinked, and my response being "maybe, can you do something about the griefers (that caused my outburst and is a little more severe than 1 not particularly extreme word)? Immediately banned for 24hrs while I was still typing. Didn't even get to spectate until end of round to confirm if somehow both of them were antags with weird cloning+revive tendencies, because I know from reading other posts and warnings that you can't call an admin to check if someone is an antag or a griefer mid round (even though the evidence here fundamentally speaks for itself and I was in gibs in disposal) without, you guessed it! Getting a warning or a ban. Thank you for your impeccable catch 22 rules. Banned if you do, banned if you don't.

Extra information: even though I try to make some fun RP moments in Goon3 making a mechanicus chapel and/or in robotics and holding funerals, and have improved and regret previous actions (mainly forcefeeding roburgers which I no longer do as non-antag) feel free to turn this 24hr ban into a permaban so I don't fall into the temptation of joining Goon servers ever again with the completely backwards priorities of administrators. I would appreciate some closure about the other 2, but based on your inactions I don't expect anything at all.

[jan.antilles]

You can ahelp people without being warned or banned for it. The behavior you mentioned is griefing, and is something I would encourage you to ahelp in the future.

That being said, when an admin PMs you because you are breaking the rules, the answer to "hey, please don't do this" is not "maybe." Rule 4 does not stop applying to you even if other people are breaking Rule 1.

Your 24 hour ban has not been extended in any way. Please feel free to rejoin our servers when it's over.

[MedEdbay]

You can ahelp people without being warned or banned for it. The behavior you mentioned is griefing, and is something I would encourage you to ahelp in the future.

That being said, when an admin PMs you because you are breaking the rules, the answer to "hey, please don't do this" is not "maybe." Rule 4 does not stop applying to you even if other people are breaking Rule 1.

Your 24 hour ban has not been extended in any way. Please feel free to rejoin our servers when it's over.

Thank you for nonexistent investigation of the incident and cross-examination of those involved that triggered me to use a word which according to definitions right now, isn't even a slur, used to self-identify. If you're going to move the goalposts in terms of what is considered "sexual content" please remember goonstation has space lube, farting on each other, and you can blow people's asses off with a spell or surgically remove them. Do you conveniently forget all the sexual content in-game when it suits you? Should I suddenly be ashamed of my Asperger's syndrome diagnosis, if being autistic is apparently a slur now? Should I consign myself or others when we "roll to seduce" with the D20 as a dungeoneer or at the table?

Are you incapable of prioritising between a non-slur vs non-antags making an in-game torture simulator? Cloning and killing me repeatedly? Have the basic decency to do some investigation first to look for the cause of the distress. Thank you for being so helpful, communicative, impartial and empathetic within the 1 sentence of yours and sub 2 minutes you gave me. It really enabled me to give you a detailed account of events and help you moderate. It would be nice to know from other admins if such a trigger-happy reaction is a prerequisite to joining the team.

"Hey, please don't do this" is not a question, and does not inherently merit a response (unless you worded it differently). I know of permaban handouts to people who responded to goon weekly bans with "see you in a week" and upped to a permaban because they weren't sufficiently groveling or supplicating at an admin's feet. Are you naive enough to think that someone who just got griefed in such a manner is in a position to make measured, prompt responses? Or are you just that uncaring? This whole situation reeks of the same cognitive dissonance of police getting called to a gun-armed break-in, and shooting the homeowner for holding a butter knife.

While I am not deluded enough to think myself entitled to closure or evidence of punishment being meted out to the griefers, providing it would assuage, and its lack confirm my suspicions as to your caliber.

[ZeWaka]

...

very normal and well-reasoned response to a polite message informing you of our rules and how we handle them

[Cal]

Holy shit dude

[Sov]

I've reviewed the logs of what transpired here...

You along with a few others do appear to have been greifed by a non-antag geneticist, who I will be banning if they aren't already banned based on what I'm seeing in this log.

You were understandably upset with this situation, but you crossed the line when you attacked the people behind the screen calling the two players idiots inbred morons, and incel

In general, I would ask that you don't verbally assault another player like this, because if they are an antag it just feels shitty to be absolutely dumped on for playing your role, and if not then it's an admins job to tell them to fuck off, not yours.

Jan messaged telling you not to use the word incel and asked if you understood. You are not expected to grovel and beg for forgiveness, just even the smallest amount of acknowledgement so we can type it into a note that you said you said you'll follow the rules and get on with our day - "mb", "ok sry". It's a low bar to pass.

when all you offer in return is a coy passive aggressive maybe it really just makes the person responding to your ahelp feel like you have no respect for them and the work they put in, or for the people who do follow the rules

[Sick Ness Monster]

This whole situation reeks of the same cognitive dissonance of police getting called to a gun-armed break-in, and shooting the homeowner for holding a butter knife.

What is actually wrong with you

[Adhara In Space]

Hopefully this post addresses any points not already covered by other staff members.

that triggered me to use a word

Other people are not responsible for your actions. If you said something rulebreaking, it is your responsibility. If someone is griefing you, your recourse is to fight back and adminhelp if you do not think they are a traitor. Noticeably, you did not let staff know about what was taking place until you were told to not call people incels.

If you're going to move the goalposts in terms of what is considered "sexual content"

Rule 4 specifically states one thing that you appear to have missed. "If an admin tells you to knock something off because it breaks the no bigotry or sexual content rule, that is not an invitation for debate. Knock it off or go elsewhere." You were told that calling someone an incel was a violation of rule 4. That means that what you said was a violation of rule 4 and breaks our rules. We have a list of examples of things that break rule 4. It is not exhaustive.

Are you incapable of prioritising between a non-slur vs non-antags making an in-game torture simulator?

We deal with people breaking the rules in whatever order we choose. It is not always in order of disruptiveness.

Thank you for being so helpful, communicative, impartial and empathetic

In rule 2, we tell our players that we try to treat them with basic respect, and ask that our players do the same for us. Jan told you that something you said broke our rules and asked if you understood that you should not say it again. You responded by saying "maybe" (which is not an answer) and immediately deflecting blame onto other players. This is not respectful of Jan or her time. Respect does not mean that someone has to be nice to you. It means that we aim to treat you as a human being with independent thoughts and feelings.

You also haven't been respectful to Jan at all in this thread. You do not treat her as an independent human being. You even compare her to a cop murdering an innocent civilian (but we will get to that).

"Hey, please don't do this" is not a question, and does not inherently merit a response (unless you worded it differently).

She did. Here is her message to you: "Don't call anyone an "incel." Abide by the language rules or play somewhere else. Understood?"

upped to a permaban because they weren't sufficiently groveling or supplicating at an admin's feet

Our ban appeals have been private for a while so I'm not sure where you heard this. What I will say is that an appeal is not a process guaranteed to get you out of a ban. When you appeal, you are trying to convince staff that you understand why you were banned and that you will not break our rules again. While it is not an automatic denial, if you treat us telling you to stop breaking our rules flippantly then we may decide that you shouldn't get the opportunity to break our rules again. Playing on our servers is a privilege that you keep by following our rules.

Are you naive enough to think that someone who just got griefed in such a manner is in a position to make measured, prompt responses?

Again, we expect that you treat our staff respectfully. It is not our fault that you were not able to keep a handle on your emotions in that situation. If you are feeling frustrated or upset when playing our game (or any, for that matter) please consider doing something else or stepping away. You are responsible for your own actions. Please stop trying to blame other people for your rulebreak.

This whole situation reeks of the same cognitive dissonance of police getting called to a gun-armed break-in, and shooting the homeowner for holding a butter knife.

I don't need to say much here. Hopefully you'll understand that comparing a volunteer staff member for a silly online game to the horrifying and disgusting murders and executions of innocent people committed by the police is one of the wildest things you could possibly say.

[Frank_Stein]

please remember goonstation has space lube

 
That's for industrial use only

[MedEdbay]

I've reviewed the logs of what transpired here...

You along with a few others do appear to have been greifed by a non-antag geneticist, who I will be banning if they aren't already banned based on what I'm seeing in this log.

You were understandably upset with this situation, but you crossed the line when you attacked the people behind the screen calling the two players idiots inbred morons, and incel

In general, I would ask that you don't verbally assault another player like this, because if they are an antag it just feels shitty to be absolutely dumped on for playing your role, and if not then it's an admins job to tell them to fuck off, not yours.

when all you offer in return is a coy passive aggressive maybe it really just makes the person responding to your ahelp feel like you have no respect for them and the work they put in

First, a huge thanks for that update on the griefers. I genuinely find it alleviating and uplifting so please bear that in mind. You have my respect for that confirmation. Second, isn't it natural and expected (as I have as nukie in the past 2 days) to receive insults as antag and hurl expletives as a victim while a ling is chewing on your leg? Seems fairly rational, if not downright par for the course RPing, not "feeling dumped on". I just mag dumped 5 people in armory with an LMG, I'd wager everyone here would be disappointed if while antagging you got the response "oh gosh golly, oh well them's the breaks, please end my suffering as quickly as possible thank you" and/or just stood there immediately testing an Ahelp instead of running or fighting.

Jan messaged telling you not to use the word incel and asked if you understood. You are not expected to grovel and beg for forgiveness, just even the smallest amount of acknowledgement so we can type it into a note that you said you said you'll follow the rules and get on with our day - "mb", "ok sry". It's a low bar to pass.

Not sure if you saw my "banned if I do, banned if I don't" comment. Seems like a fair bit of cherry-picking what some of the other folks here reply to. I was not aware that it was effectively a compelled speech clause, in which case it felt as though Jan gave me genuinely a minute or less to respond or write anything detailing the situation. 0 williingness to listen for more than a few seconds before their attention wore off. I guessed (correctly) that if I didn't respond, I get banned, and if I took too long typing the situation, guess what? Banned.
https://youtu.be/eiyfwZVAzGw?t=23
So i reply something to acknowledge the fact I received the message, in order to keep them engaged while I finish the lengthier description, and got cut off mid-second reply. I did not manage 2 sentences in our exchange. I did ask what people's thoughts are here on that level of impatient overzealousness. In this situation it would be nice to be met with something more reasonable along the lines of:

"Hey, I just saw you got mega-torture-griefed by 2 non antags and you were cloned, killed and gibbed into disposals. While I understand your frustration, I guarantee they will enjoy a lengthy ban. Regardless, can you please in the future attempt to refrain from using (exhaustive list here linked from your speech filter/detector), ok?"

In which case I guarantee you my response would be an unequivocal "absolutely, my apologies for overstepping the line".

Alternatively if Jan didn't see what happened and just saw the word trigger or however it works for you:

"Hey, what's with all the swearing?"
"Just got mega-torture-griefed etc"
"Sorry to hear that, lemme check they're not antag and they'll enjoy a lengthy ban etc. Could you try to reduce/not use X in the future"
"Understood, sorry for overstepping the line"

Another alternative being:

(teleports/drags/tells those involved in genetics to follow them because they're an admin)
"Medebay tell me what just happened and what's with all the swearing"
(explains)
"Griefers, tell me why you're griefing as non antag, giving someone genetic disorders against their will, and breaking 5 other rules"
(fails to explain, gets banned)
"MedEbay, I understand your frustration but don't swear/use X so much"
"understood, thanks for stepping in"

Instead I effectively got from Jan:

"MedEbay, I find you guilty of using X. I see everything in a vacuum. You have less seconds to reply than how long it took me to type this 1 sentence. Taking too long to tell me there are griefers will get you banned. You will never know if I ever did anything beyond moderate this 1 word or punish the griefers because I can be replaced by a bot with a word detector and a popup "do you agree to not use X word again" with a yes or no checkbox, and because asking me to do anything else is questioning and a subversion of my position, which also gets you banned. Tough shit. Time's up. You took too long reading, calming down. gathering your thoughts, and writing. You had less than one fucking minute so quit wasting my time. Banned.

Is it really that unreasonable to ask to be treated with a modicum of respect and patience like in the first three examples? In all of those the respect is earned and reciprocated, because it takes something more than the bare bot-automatable minimum.

or for the people who do follow the rules

You should hopefully see then in the logs that in my 1 day of playing genetics for the first time, very quickly I was curing/reclaiming every negative trait people asked me to. Reciprocating respect and following the rules, correct? Similarly, only ever changing someone's species when they asked.

Thank you very much for confirming justice has/is being served vs the griefer(s). The stafass stole my ID and gear after killing me along with the geneticist so I couldn't leave the room after they dragged me in and tried to lock me in, again.

---

This whole situation reeks of the same cognitive dissonance of police getting called to a gun-armed break-in, and shooting the homeowner for holding a butter knife.

What is actually wrong with you

You also haven't been respectful to Jan at all in this thread. You do not treat her as an independent human being. You even compare her to a cop murdering an innocent civilian (but we will get to that).

This whole situation reeks of the same cognitive dissonance of police getting called to a gun-armed break-in, and shooting the homeowner for holding a butter knife.

I don't need to say much here. Hopefully you'll understand that comparing a volunteer staff member for a silly online game to the horrifying and disgusting murders and executions of innocent people committed by the police is one of the wildest things you could possibly say.

Definitions from Oxford languages:

Hyperbole
noun
Exaggerated statements or claims not to be taken literally.

Not trying to reduce the importance or impact of unjust police murders - just the most common thing I see online. Next time I'll endeavor to use something more like cane toad (admin) being brought to Australia which ends up ignoring the cane beetles (griefers) eating the sugarcane. Creative juices aren't exactly flowing at 5am so forgive me.

[UrsulaMejor]

I did not manage 2 sentences in our exchange

Your very first sentence was an admission that you do not respect our rules and will likely break them in the future. As such, you were given what is effectively a very stern warning that we are serious about our rules and your need to respect them.

There were many, many ways for you to have handled that exchange. You are responsible for the way you chose.

You chose to call them an incel instead of any other insult.

You chose to respond to a request to follow the rules with a flippant remark that seemed to indicate that you would not follow them.

and you are now Choosing to make really hyperbolic comparisons to police and dictatorships instead of doing the normal thing, which would be to say "Ah, sorry. I will follow the rules." When you walk into a house party, and the host asks you not to use certain language in their house, do you say "wow you are literally like a cop killing me right now!" or do you say "ah, my bad" and move on?

Your behavior in this admin complaint is rapidly draining any and all good will or expectation that you will follow our rules. You clearly have no respect for them, and have an attitude towards our staff and your fellow players that they do not deserve.

I sincerely hope that you will self-reflect on how you are coming off in this exchange. This is not a space you are owed membership to, this is a space you are allowed to be in on the basis of a social contract: You will follow the rules of our house, and you can hang out at our cool house party with all the other players who don't have the issue you're having. If you don't, you will not be allowed to stay here.

This was your fourth language warning.

[MedEdbay]

I did not manage 2 sentences in our exchange

Your very first sentence was an admission that you do not respect our rules and will likely break them in the future. As such, you were given what is effectively a very stern warning that we are serious about our rules and your need to respect them.
You chose to respond to a request to follow the rules with a flippant remark that seemed to indicate that you would not follow them.
Your behavior in this admin complaint is rapidly draining any and all good will or expectation that you will follow our rules. You clearly have no respect for them, and have an attitude towards our staff and your fellow players that they do not deserve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_Nh5IGMo8g
"Maybe" is not not an admission that one doesn't respect the rules, just as questioning the government in the 50s under McCarthyism doesn't make one a communist, or mixing healing herbs doesn't make one a magical witch to be burnt at the stake. And holy hell, did you just forget the importance of "innocent until proven guilty"? Passing judgement before I've broken any rules in the future? Please keep your creative extrapolations and profiling private. And since when is (iirc) "Maybe, are you going to do something about the griefers?" a flippant remark? You think I don't take a situation in which I got griefed seriously? And ah yes, trying to answer every point raised by the team and the time it takes so as to not make them feel wasted really shows how much I don't care about this at all /s. I clearly have no respect for the rules, which is why when I got warned the last time about forcefeeding I stopped, and as you so conveniently leave out, first day on genetics that I was removing every negative mutation people asked and only changing species when asked. Go ahead, look at the logs of "Hey, thanks". So as I have mentioned before please have the decency of keeping your overzealous pitchforking and cherrypicking to a minimum, or at the very least pursue a career with the Catholic Inquisition. In case you forgot, I pulled this helpful reminder for you from the admin guideline page:

DISCOURAGED: Staff are strongly discouraged from maintaining negative or antagonistic conversational habits in Goonstation-branded spaces

And please, before you knee-jerk and accuse me of being facetious, as I have mentioned before, I have Asperger's syndroms/autism spectrum disorder (if you wanna see my paperwork I can privately send you a copy with some personal redactions). My intentions are not to undermine, but to understand, which requires exhaustive explanations and questions as to how you operate, where the lines are, how blurry the lines are (more on that later), what specific list of words are on the banned language in its entirety and what kind of justice or lack thereof I can expect. ie what is a normal modus operandi here and if it is a good fit for me. I have yet to be met with the same level of thorough answering to each and every point I have raised. I feel it rather hypocritical I have to highlight rule 2's "take the time to talk to them about it".

you are now Choosing to make really hyperbolic comparisons to police and dictatorships instead of doing the normal thing, which would be to say "Ah, sorry. I will follow the rules." When you walk into a house party, and the host asks you not to use certain language in their house, do you say "wow you are literally like a cop killing me right now!" or do you say "ah, my bad" and move on?

Poor comparison. This is walking into a house party, getting punched by another guest, and then being thrown out of the house by the owner after being asked untactfully if I will stop bleeding all over the carpet, and answering "maybe, can I get a bandage?". If yes, then there's no issue as the bleeding stops, if not, then why would I want to stay? In which case I leave, and any future bleeding is no longer your concern. In that case, the second answer is undefined, or irrelevant. It is a Schrodinger's cat answer, only to collapse into one specific answer upon being answered by the admin of any repercussions (or lake thereof) for the griefers.

Or y'know, I could just use the word "maybe" and avoid having to explain the meaning of the word and its function with quantum physics.

You chose to call them an incel instead of any other insult.

This was your fourth language warning.

I still haven't received any confirmation that there is in fact some kind of automatic word detector/filter that triggers admins to action. If so, you are in the envious position of having access and knowledge of the words that trigger it, whilst also not giving players the luxury of knowing said list. You are, in essence, controlling a DnD dungeon and not telling the players what all the traps are, and then issuing warnings when they trip them, instead of informing them beforehand. If this is such a major issue, why is there not a chat filter/profanity censor? Playing chess with one of us blindfolded reeks of entrapment.

[Adhara In Space]

We have been very patient with you. We have spent a lot of collective goodwill in responding to your wildly disrespectful post.

We do not believe your complaint about Jan's conduct is valid. It is up to her, not you, if she thinks your remark was dismissive. We will be locking this thread. If you continue to post about this anywhere else on our forums, or complain about it this in game, you will be removed from the community. Further responses from you are not welcome.

[Osump]

ADMIN EDIT: I'm a silly little dumbo who likes to peanut post on other people's feedback