"The Stun META discussion Thread"

[RelentlessGarbage]

After looking through the code, I can confirm parts of this. As it currently operates (based on stamina_stuns.dm), weapons that apply stun, like stun batons, will deduct stamina on hit and apply Disorient debuffs and similar. If the target hits 0 stamina or has negative stamina, they will be knocked to the ground and stunned for a variable amount of time, based on the weapon and the buffs/armor that the target has. Drugs that increase stamina regeneration can counter this by having you regenerate stamina between hits and by directly reducing how long the disorient debuff you take from getting hit and the resulting stun length from hitting zero stamina is.

If I understand part of the code correctly, having disorient resistance also directly decreases the stamina damage taken from stunning weapons:

Code:

var/disorient_mult = 1 - (protection/100)
    var/stamdmg_mult = lerp(disorient_mult, 1, 0.25) // apply 3/4 the reduction effect to the stamina damage

    disorient *= disorient_mult
    stamina_damage *= stamdmg_mult

    if (remove_stamina_below_zero)
        src.remove_stamina(stamina_damage)
    else if (src.stamina > 0)
        src.remove_stamina(min(stamina_damage, src.stamina))

(note that this is part of a much bigger block of code - this is just the most pertinent part)

This would mean that drugs and armor that provide disorient resistance also directly reduce stamina damage from tasers and batons - which tracks with the common knowledge that being on meth increases the amount of baton swings needed to knock you down (given meth provides a baseline 50% reduction in disorient duration, or a 33.25% reduction in stamina damage taken).

[Lord_earthfire]

This would mean that drugs and armor that provide disorient resistance also directly reduce stamina damage from tasers and batons - which tracks with the common knowledge that being on meth increases the amount of baton swings needed to knock you down (given meth provides a baseline 50% reduction in disorient duration, or a 33.25% reduction in stamina damage taken).

There are no drugs that provide disorient resistance. I had that wrong at the beginning as well.

drugs, like meth, only adds stun resistance, not disorient resistance. It reduces the duration of the stun/weakened debuffs after the desorient resistance and stamina damage were applied. And it does not even reduce disorient duration....

[RelentlessGarbage]

There are no drugs that provide disorient resistance. I had that wrong at the beginning as well.

Huh. So that disorient resistance is only bolstered by clothes/armor, then?

[Lord_earthfire]

Huh. So that disorient resistance is only bolstered by clothes/armor, then?

There are some other mechanics as well, but these are the main ones. Like saber blocking adds 75% disorient resistance.

[Kotlol]

I am going to wait with updating the opening post again till I am 100% sure the data is compiled and 100% verified XD
I am fine with compiling it, but right now the dicussion is going much faster and more what I intended to help find out early on.

Coding data is really useful but we are starting to see the more complete picture of how stun works and what roles it plays and why it's so overwhelming.

[Zamujasa]

A big issue with stuns is how stam is played out in goon at least I think a few adjustments with the stam system since everyone is ALWAYS RUNNING it makes you WAY more susceptible to stuns

have you simply considered not running

[RelentlessGarbage]

have you simply considered not running

Transcribing from the wiki, here:

The Tenets of Robustism

---

Being robust requires a certain way of life. It's not about luck, it's about control. Control yourself, control your environment, control your opponent.

Don't be clicked
Don't give your opponent the chance to click on you. That which cannot be clicked, cannot be robusted.

• Move randomly. Hammer the movement keys like you mean it.
  
• Don't wait for your opponent to come to you. The aggressor holds the advantage.
  
• Don't stand still.
  
• Don't let people stand next to you.
  

Not to say that the wiki is gospel, or even right about all things, but sprinting during encounters is generally a good way to avoid getting clicked, even with the advent of special attacks that help deal with people moving quickly/unpredictably. A quick sprint-dodge can be the difference between getting hit by a taser bolt or not. But, naturally, doing this will make you more vulnerable to tasers and batons.

Besides, being at half-stamina won't change the fact that one baton swing connecting will generally mean that a second one will connect immediately after, due to how Disorient messes with your movement. You could avoid sprinting everywhere, but being at full stamina when someone hits you with a baton or taser will only give you a tiny window to run or retaliate - a window of time that's generally too small to do anything useful. "Not sprinting" doesn't change the fact that two taps from a stun baton will generally put you on the ground.

[UrsulaMejor]

Sprinting during encounters is not the best way to not get clicked; people who sprint are more predictable in their movements and will empty their stamina reserves quickly if you just let them.

Making 100 attacks is not as useful as hitting 1 attack. Remember: Attacking drains your stamina, which makes you easier to disarm and limits your ability to flee should things turn sour.

[RelentlessGarbage]

Sprinting during encounters is not the best way to not get clicked; people who sprint are more predictable in their movements and will empty their stamina reserves quickly if you just let them.

Making 100 attacks is not as useful as hitting 1 attack. Remember: Attacking drains your stamina, which makes you easier to disarm and limits your ability to flee should things turn sour.

This may be so - you certainly have more experience than I. But I fear that I'm taking this thread off-topic.

Given that you have seniority here, and likely better understanding of the game's inner workings as a developer, are there any misconceptions about current stun mechanics that you would like to clear up? You may also be able to provide a better perspective on the current balance of stuns as opposed to how they have been historically.

[Cheffie]

Sprinting during encounters is not the best way to not get clicked; people who sprint are more predictable in their movements and will empty their stamina reserves quickly if you just let them.

Making 100 attacks is not as useful as hitting 1 attack. Remember: Attacking drains your stamina, which makes you easier to disarm and limits your ability to flee should things turn sour.

Not running just means you will get stunned unless you rely on RNG like disarms, but those won't help when you get hit by a taser shot and get disorientated or downed.

[Lord_earthfire]

Well, "don't get hit" is very important for being robust and fighting security.

The problem is that, despite all preparations you are able to do, this is the only effective one. Drugs increase your mobility to not get hit. And these with other few ways to combat stun gameplay are always cried about, like mechboots.

So, we need ways to supplement the current preparation with in-conbat measurements. My suggestion would be to make blocking work against stuns.

Blocking with an item grants desorient resistance, depending on the size category of the item you are blocking with: 40% for large items you cannot wield in a backpack, 30% for medium sized, 20% for small sized and 10% for unarmed.

This takes the desorient resist mechanic of the c-saber block and applies a much weaker version to all other items. This gives skill based counterplay to stuns and can be supplemented by the small disorient resist bonuses we already have. And it enables this source for non-prepared targets as well, which makes it easier to combat an amysg woth sec stuns.

[Kotlol]

Well, "don't get hit" is very important for being robust and fighting security.

The problem is that, despite all preparations you are able to do, this is the only effective one. Drugs increase your mobility to not get hit. And these with other few ways to combat stun gameplay are always cried about, like mechboots.

So, we need ways to supplement the current preparation with in-conbat measurements. My suggestion would be to make blocking work against stuns.

Blocking with an item grants desorient resistance, depending on the size category of the item you are blocking with: 40% for large items you cannot wield in a backpack, 30% for medium sized, 20% for small sized and 10% for unarmed.

This takes the desorient resist mechanic of the c-saber block and applies a much weaker version to all other items. This gives skill based counterplay to stuns and can be supplemented by the small disorient resist bonuses we already have. And it enables this source for non-prepared targets as well, which makes it easier to combat an amysg woth sec stuns.

How would blocking work against tazers and bullets? I can see it work against Batons really well.
But a tazer shotgun to the gullet would still insta-down you, drop your item and get batoned into obilivion.

Though if it does roughly always the same with batons and tazers and stun rounds I am like: "Well this works perfectly then"
But on the down side... blocking COSTS STAMINA for each block. So you might resist disorient , but you lose more stamina?

Though I am more in favor of this then anything. Since again blocking is just being robust and tactical.
I would want some sort of "Anti-Stun" armor. (Wich just lowers stamina damage and disorient, but you take extra brute damage)

[Lord_earthfire]

How would blocking work against tazers and bullets? I can see it work against Batons really well.
But a tazer shotgun to the gullet would still insta-down you, drop your item and get batoned into obilivion.

It's more like the taser hits hit the item instead of you. Then again, yeah , that isnt the most logical, when we look at tasers being sone kind of electric charge.

For tasers, keep in mind disorient resist wirks additively. So that 15% from emergency armor would turn to 45% with e.g. a phaser/revolver. So that would enable you to take an additional hit. Which is already worth much.

For batons, it wpuld work quite well as "you don't get a proper hit in in melee combat."

[Kotlol]

I also feel like baton's being blocked by item blocking isn't inhertly a bad thing and won't change much in the Stun Meta sense.

Most security officers baton you when you are down and unarmed anyway.
Other wise they tazer or wave beam you.
And luckily for most people, Tazering costs significantly more energy on battery power then batons.

Also blocking disallows you to attack anyway... so if anything it's a defensive meassure vs batoning and giving you a lil extra slip oppertunity.
This thing alone would make engaging security chases abit more interresting on both sides.

[Cheffie]

disorientate resistance affects tasers as well not just batons. but yeah I like the idea of blocking with items increasing disorientate resistance. considering that blocking slows you down its balanced that way.