[CLOSED PR] Reverts 93bee53 and associated changes, adds observers to the respawn ...

[github_bot]

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[INPUT][RP][FEATURE]

About the PR
This PR may be controversial, please allow adequate time for feedback. This PR also does not in any way constitute an endorsement or repudiation of the current or past state of affairs regarding observer respawns.

Reverts commit [93bee53](https://github.com/goonstation/goonstati...d3922cb1cf) and the other changes made to `observer.dm` to allow the game to compile properly. Choosing to observe the round will allow respawns after the standard respawn time when `RP_MODE` is true.

When choosing to observe from the splash screen, the pop-up will inform the player that they have the option to participate when their respawn timer runs out.


Why's this needed?
For a long time, the continued inclusion of this feature/bug didn't seem to garner a consensus among the development team and was generally left alone until #12750 prompted a change. This change has been met with some level of controversy, and this PR attempts to present another option for retaining that feature while also making it explicit that it _is_ a feature.

On RP, ghosts who have participated in the round and either die or cryo are already permitted to respawn after a timer. It may be incongruent to disallow respawns from ghosts who choose to observe the round from the outset, and the rules are already explicit on respawning players and metagaming.

Changelog

Code:

changelog
(u)DisturbHerb
(*)Observer respawn has been re-implemented for the roleplay servers. The pop-up will explicitly inform you that you are unable to participate until the respawn timer runs out. Please do not use this to metagame.

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[Waffleloffle]

since herb is allergic to being straightforward, I'll sum up what this PR concerns

on the RP servers, it was possible for observer ghosts to activate the 10-minute respawn timer for themselves by spectating a mob, then returning to free-roaming observation. when performed, this would put the respawn timer at the top of the screen for observer ghosts, and at the end of those 10 minutes, they would be able to respawn from the title screen like someone who had died in-round would be able to

this exploit was something of an open secret - several of the RP admins knew about it, I've personally ahelped about it a couple times and gotten the go-ahead, and some admins claim to have used it regularly themselves. yass even put in code to ensure that observer respawns would not be able to roll latejoin antag in the same commit that set all observers to DNR for the purposes of mid-round antag spawns that pulled from the ghost pool. that being said, it definitely doesn't feel intuitive or intentional. it ended up getting reported as a bug, and then patched in a commit one would never know was controversial unless they spectated the rp servers somewhat frequently

there's several points for and against embracing this as a feature. here's the main ones I see:

from the pro-observer respawn camp:
- it allows people to gauge the Vibe of a round so they can decide whether they want to join themselves. RP rounds usually go until the automatic shuttle call at 90 minutes, which is not a small time commitment
- if people aren't necessarily Feeling It at the start of a round, it means they don't have to cryo-ghost early on. while cryo-ghosting is by no means a negative thing, it can definitely impact the social environment of the other people on station if said person rolled a member of command, for example. and also cryo-ghosting can just look a lot like antag fishing, if done regularly enough
- it allows people to latejoin without the worry that they'll roll latejoin antagonist when they aren't feeling up to an antagonist round
- the potential for jank is much lower than it is for the other method of respawning as an observer (respawning as a ghostcritter, and then finding some way to get yourself killed. I'm not sure if it was fixed, but having my dead ghostcritter body get reclaimed after respawning as a player forcibly pulled my mind out of my body and left me stranded in the spectral realm)

from the anti-observer respawn camp:
- the potential for metagaming is very high. observers can readily see player inventories and antag-specifc HUDs, and potentially being able to take this information into an already-running round is a big risk. sure, you can ahelp if you notice someone doing it, but not every instance of metagaming is obvious
- it can contribute to cliquing issues by allowing people to curate their character or job choices to compliment the characters or jobs their friends are playing. you can already sort of see whether or not your friends are in-round by using the Who command, but being able to watch them for a bit and then join in may be too little spontaniety for the admins' comfort
- the current implementation is (or, well, was) inaccessible to new players. however, I believe herb's PR fixes this

I've personally used observer respawning on a regular basis, but I'm fine with whichever way the admins rule on this issue. I see validity in both the points for it and the points against it

as for zewaka's concern about keeping the codebase consistent between Classic and RP here, I don't think it's applicable to classic since (last time I checked anyways) classic lacks a respawn timer to begin with. if you die on Classic and don't get revived, you're basically out of the round. on the RP servers, once you die, a 10-minute timer starts that allows you to respawn from the title screen once it's finished. I don't know if this is something that admins can manually enable on classic

[Zamujasa]

my opinion (that i have shared in the admin discussion) is that if it was entirely 100% up to me observing would be the same as being a ghost normally without a body. so no dnr, no exclusion from mid-round events, respawn timer on rp, etc. with the caveat that observers on classic and rp are de-prioritized for mid-round events, i.e. given a much lower weighting than dead players.

i personally do not give the slightest of shits to people who observe for a while and then decide to jump in later. after all, it's what i did.

[Kotlol]

As for me... I once joined as an observer once and had the prompt to spawn as an antag critter on server.. but only after I commited suicide in the after life bar.

I have no problem with observers joining after 10 minutes. RP is chill and if they meta, we can have admins bonk them with a good ole ahelp.
But blocking them from ever getting antag that round is a good one.

But removing the feature all together? It makes no sense.. since someone can join as a staff assistant, commit brutal suicide and get a 20 min respawn OR... just walk into the grinder and get the 10 min anyway.. if anything... it would add unnessarcy coding and people who want to observe and respawn.. would just commit suicide to do it then.

So if you want to punish people who meta observe.. will just do the same by just being killed somehow to avoid the 20 min timer.

[colossusqw]

I personally think being able to observe and join the round after a while is a great feature and love to have it in an official capacity, without making people have to resort to questionable jank to have it work. I'm all for it.

[Silent Majority]

my opinion (that i have shared in the admin discussion) is that if it was entirely 100% up to me observing would be the same as being a ghost normally without a body. so no dnr, no exclusion from mid-round events, respawn timer on rp, etc. with the caveat that observers on classic and rp are de-prioritized for mid-round events, i.e. given a much lower weighting than dead players.

i personally do not give the slightest of shits to people who observe for a while and then decide to jump in later. after all, it's what i did.

I echo this in its entirity. Given the choice i would let observers respawn

[CalliopeSoups]

I can see the arguments for both sides here and wouldn't die at either going ahead, but I do agree with zamu's ideals. I like using it to see if artsci isn't already filled with 3-4 people, since I often dunno what to do as a scientist otherwise. Metagaming is an inevitable issue though so if it's a significant help to admins to not have it be a feature, I'm okay with that. Like the others though I would let observers respawn if given the choice.

[Cal]

I'm cool with it as long as it gets logged when people late join and possibly added to the round end screen so people can go "Oh this guy who arrested me at 31 minutes in joined at 30" and ahelp

As for metacliquing I also have this concern but I trust players to ahelp when they think it's happening so we can look into it

[Silent Majority]

For metahelp i feel its better to trust the integrity of our players then to prevent them the chance

[Kotlol]

For metahelp i feel its better to trust the integrity of our players then to prevent them the chance

Metacliqueingaka being an observer then telling another player somehow what's going on.. if people wanna do that they would use discord.

If they respawn to meta.. it atleast takes 10 mins for them to do so. If they do that... it would be a very easy to solve ahelp.

So yes I trust the integrity of the players too.
We changed some things like Ghostdrones in the past for alot of reasons.
But this feature being limited due to people being meta...
Yea it won't stop meta-ers >_>'
They will find ways to be meta. Alt acount + observe then switch to main acount to log in and such.

[KikiMofo]

If the server has respawn on anyway who cares?
Its the RP server so it already has rules against metagaming from what you see while a ghost.
Don't see why someone that joins as an observer shouldn't be allowed to join the game as respawn if everyone else that died can.
Should just be the same rules for observers as there are for someone that died in game.

[Wisemonster]

I agree with the idea of letting observers respawn/be a part of respawn events, but with reduced priority over players that died over the course of the round. I also think that, as ZeWaka said, both rp and classic should follow the similar rules when it comes letting observers respawn, whether that be preventing or allowing.