Redefine the antag/sec ratio

[MoonJesus]

On a recent round i emptied a container of welding fuel and about 4-5 sec officers, the HoS, and the blue meanie arrived maybe 2 minutes later to interrogate me (stun handcuff and search in brig for 5+ minutes before setting a timer).

Before this i booked it through space as i had a spacesuit on and figured that'd be an advantage to get away but I guess the NTSO armor also doubles as a spacesuit which really makes m question, just why does sec get:
 a discount nuke-op on their side,
\plus HoS with fancy gun,
plus however many players (hardly ever less than 3 minimum),
plus two securitrons who do a pretty decent job of subduing people on their own,
plus the all-seeing AI if they're that type of player, including borgs
not to mention monkey players who itch for any excuse to toolbox you if you so much as fart next to their airlocks

if it was some kind of late join due to sec being wiped out, that makes sense. but right now all i see is stacked sec teams and i know i've seen other threads on this, it makes being an antag stressful and resort to half-measures instead of going full try hard gimmicks

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Apparently NTSO is supposed to be a mentor role, 9/10 i see NTSO lone wolfing around the station being robocop, not some kind of leader. maybe delegate 1-2 officers to go after a lead instead of the whole team coming down on someone for farting in chapel

[Flaborized]

Antags imo should be put up against pretty strong opposition. Antags have a lot of tools that are individually tailored to them that let them deal with security in unique ways (which can include avoiding security or fleeing) and security being a major, real threat gives you incentive to use them.

Traitor has a ton of stuff for this. If security is stacked, play around them and their weaknesses. You can cut cameras (or just subvert/kill the AI), EMP sec officers to drain the charge of all their items and blind them if they're wearing secHUDs, use DNA scramblers or chameleon outfits to make it more difficult to understand who you are, etc. If sec isn't a real threat to you, capable of making you Lose if you mess up, then the tension isn't there and you don't have any real reason to be creative with the big kit you get. Sec shouldn't be something you *opt into* having to deal with as antag, they should be a real factor in your plans to do whatever evil stuff you want to do, and you should be rewarded for planning ahead and having means to fight/run from/avoid them.

These are just my personal opinions on the dynamic between sec and antags though, I'm only speaking for myself here

[Ikea]

A big part of it is just security is less distracted nowadays. Theres a lot more new players, meaning that a lot of antags dont attract much attention one way or another. Its not like its an inherent part of this sec count to where security stomps, weve had the same sec pops with less players (and antags) and antags still being able to do well. Its just a lot of antags are new so antags as a whole do less well off, this will mostly be solved by just waiting for people to learn.

[MoonJesus]

Antags imo should be put up against pretty strong opposition. Antags have a lot of tools that are individually tailored to them that let them deal with security in unique ways (which can include avoiding security or fleeing) and security being a major, real threat gives you incentive to use them.

Traitor has a ton of stuff for this. If security is stacked, play around them and their weaknesses. You can cut cameras (or just subvert/kill the AI), EMP sec officers to drain the charge of all their items and blind them if they're wearing secHUDs, use DNA scramblers or chameleon outfits to make it more difficult to understand who you are, etc. If sec isn't a real threat to you, capable of making you Lose if you mess up, then the tension isn't there and you don't have any real reason to be creative with the big kit you get. Sec shouldn't be something you *opt into* having to deal with as antag, they should be a real factor in your plans to do whatever evil stuff you want to do, and you should be rewarded for planning ahead and having means to fight/run from/avoid them.

These are just my personal opinions on the dynamic between sec and antags though, I'm only speaking for myself here

The thing is once you're stunned and drop the antag item its worthless and you're probably dead, so maybe that item was good for putting 1-2 sec officers in crit but they'll probably heal up or clone minutes later and you'll have to deal with the fresh bodies that show up

[nefarious6th]

mostly agree with ikea; sec doesnt play like it used to 2 years ago even, people clean house as sec because of better coordination and communication. dynamics are interesting for sure, I've had arcfiends run circles around good veteran teams and more seasoned traitors (on rp) get beepskied hilariously fast.

ultimately validhunting from monkeyplayers/bored cargo ppl/feral staffies isnt really something sec can control on classic since it's the hip thing that everyone wants to do and be a part of (beating a werewolf to death is a good team building exercise), and the game is fundamentally antag vs crew not just antag vs sec. but you are very right that ntsc is a whitelisted role and so if you see silent lone wolf validhunting, you are more than able to ahelp it.
my only other advice for aspiring traitors is to rogue or kill the AI if they're a snitch sort, and try locking securitron into crates if you need them out of the way without a destruction notice being sent. signal jammers + destroying them works too and if you can lure officers one by one to pick them off, sig jammers will help in blocking their radio calls and any PDA alerts that would be sent.

[Kotlol]

I can already hear people rolling their eyes but... ON RP...

It's much more relaxed dealing with Antags, we see you holding contraband? Security will adress it's contraband and say: "Look get a lisence for it or turn it in on security." Security is DISCOURAGED from smacking you with a stun baton for that, cause you done no real crimes yet.

From what I hear in classic, people will kill you if they even suspect you to be an antag and if you aren't... well you ahelp it.

But since MOST ANTAGONISTS are working in secret and in the shadows. Here are some advice tips how to get things rolling in your advantage...

1: Have a "Kill zone" , mostly off camera's if you have to kill someone, a place YOU CONTROL. It must be on station.

2: If you have gadgets use them wisely. Sure it's fun to grab a gun and sword and fight security head on, but that's not encouraged...
Guns and swords are LAST RESORTS!

3: Kill the detective and steal their shit. Try to isolate them with a fake blood trial of your own or anything. Killing them is a FREE GUN and a FREE PAIR OF VR GOGGLES that allows you Camera access and Security records. You can now make security run circles around as you have probaly grounded 1 or 2 people into staying on the consoles to make sure no one gets arrested. Also DET_NET records access is faster then Sec_mate.

4: Take any OFF STATION place as your hideout. Even the ghost drone factories can help on this, sure AI has access, but everything is much futher away, building a base there is good.

5: When you are doing something more risky that requires stealth, setup an emergency that sec has to deal with. "Accidently" let out a plasma leak, "FIND" Kudzu growing (they can't prove it was you), release creatures that attack others, anything that will keep security busy for a moment as well as the AI. Now you can subvert the AI, steal whatever and if someone notices it, kill em and go to your hideout.

6: Know your limits of your antag, Spy thieves need to build up, Arcfiend needs to drain energy and such. Don't engage in combat just cause you can. Combat is your last resort.

7: If you are an Arcfiend, Vampire or Changeling and need some energy or bio mass or blood without alerting anyone? Go to the diner or off station to find NPCs to eat or free apc's to drain. No alerts go out for those and if anyone is valid hunting there, remember.. Space Diner is considered "NOT NT SPACE" (We in the RP community consider killing the diner patrons only a hint you are an antag but can't charge you for it since those NPCs are not crew, thus we can't charge you for a crime. Should apply to classic as well, you only tip off someone is killing/draining energy.) And you can always throw the bodies into space or the gibber to avoid any finger prints.

8: Finally, You are 1 vs the whole security team. Try to find other antags and work with them or Kill em to steal their tools, but leave evidence on them to show they were one. You will always be outnumbered, if you want to keep the crew off you, go somewhere the crew isn't around alot. Remember... Crew with toolboxes hurt, but they have no protection mostly and no way of doing anything BUT TOOLBOX DAMAGE! They have no guns cept the heads.

With that's all I can say... If you want to do an obivious crime infront of everyone like dumping welding fuel everywhere and running away, yea no wonder everyone arrested you. You did a dumb, security responded, shouted at you, then wanted to take you in and you fled. You just became public enemy number 1 and you had a 0/100 stealth. But if you want to do it smart... you set up the welding fuel on another off station, use a fluid container or water bottle from a water cooler and then bring it to the station and dump it all and do your magic.
Now your setup time is NOT in AI reach or crew reach.

Simply put, you got caught, you panicked and now you are mad at security and crew doing their due diligence cause you thought you could commit a crime in broad daylight.

[mralexs]

I think it would help if there was a way to practice being an antag. A common complaint is that not a lot of people have experience being one, whereas it's easy to get sec experience. Another problem is that some antags want to go loud immediately, leading to sec coming down on them with extreme prejudice. Some players who have tons of experience in rampaging can get away with this, but not many new players can and they want to.

[SenExus]

I think it would help if there was a way to practice being an antag. A common complaint is that not a lot of people have experience being one, whereas it's easy to get sec experience. Another problem is that some antags want to go loud immediately, leading to sec coming down on them with extreme prejudice. Some players who have tons of experience in rampaging can get away with this, but not many new players can and they want to.

One way of doing this would be adding more antags to the murderbox in VR. I hear that some people are already doing this, but you could probably take a crack at it 

[nefarious6th]

adding ling and vampire to the box would be excellent. also I would indirectly benefit because I can test things on a whim when I forget how an ability works and need to know for myself or for someone else

[Danger Noodle]

the only problem is that lings WERE in the murderbox but because of how it's coded would permakill living people that were using vr

[Kotlol]

the only problem is that lings WERE in the murderbox but because of how it's coded would permakill living people that were using vr

Lings can even perma kill players that have done the philosopher stone adventure zone. You know those immortal guys that can kill themselves over and over and over and over and keep respawning instantly safely? Yea.. if a changeling eats them.. it's done-so. They are dead!

[babayetu83]

i think you should get bonus TC if there is a hos present at round start and an additional bonus if there's a ntsec present as well

all it takes is for one nerd to squeal over the radio and sec will be on you faster than grant took richmond

[Mouse]

Gonna be honest, I see security get wiped a fair amount.  There has been some power creep with sec equipment, but I can't help but feel that part of this is people who used to walk over security losing and not wanting to switch tactics.

[Nihisohel]

Gonna be honest, I see security get wiped a fair amount.  There has been some power creep with sec equipment, but I can't help but feel that part of this is people who used to walk over security losing and not wanting to switch tactics.

while i do agree that sec should have some kind of ratio, this post is definitely just that for sure