+- Goonstation Forums (https://forum.ss13.co)
+-- Forum: Discussion (https://forum.ss13.co/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Ideas & Suggestions (https://forum.ss13.co/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Thread: More Specialty Security Jobs (/showthread.php?tid=5756)
Re: More Specialty Security Jobs - DyssalC - 12-20-2015
Ed Venture Wrote:You views seem bias at most. Mostly the ones about fun and responsibility. Also I was not talking about medbay needing more then one job because of access (wut) and I also dismissed your earlier posts that branched off subject cause I felt they did not matter as instead of explaining your side of it you wasted your efforts in trying to poke holes in my logic. Also I can't help but feel you are getting a tad offensive over this. Maybe I'm reading too much into your comments but that's just the feeling I am getting reading over your post.
1. Security has always been about carrying out your own sense of crime and punishment as long as you don't break the rules while doing so. I could argue this brings fun to the table. I agree that adding some more sub sections to it could add even further to it.
2. Security has always given players free reign on how they can handle anything. Hell even Vice cops can still act like normal officers when they need to.
3.You bit about responsibility makes some sense but not completely. All a new player or even an long time player needs to know about security before playing is to read the rules and use common sense before playing the job and they will be fine. If they don't and get in trouble then it's on them not the job itself.
4. You say it would make security more efficient but my past rounds since cogmap2 I have had nothing but good players new and old playing security. I've mention earlier in other thread how a full sec team I was apart of split up and cover the entire station and used amazing teamwork. Maybe your just limited by your experiences? I think it could certainly add to certain things and may even be a more relaxing way to ease players into security all together
I'm not trying to be all negative here as I stated that I'm open to it but still conflicted to it. My main concern which I failed to voice was that adding too much roles to security may make things harder in the long run. This fear comes from Captains thinking they can run security and the ways they handle things as normal security officers roles could conflict with the other special class roles and lead to needless arguments when they are all on the same team to begin with
1. I'm not quite certain what you mean by this. If you mean doing things like punishing people, then yes, that's a thing. That's a thing that doesn't really conflict with anything I said.
2. This seems like a similar sentiment to the first thing. However, I do sort of see what you're actually trying to say with this. Where I see the inclusion of specialty jobs as a way of taking away certain pressures and responsibilities from normal sec officers, you see as taking away from their opportunities. Perhaps in some small way it would, but there'd be nothing against the rules about trying to hunt down criminals in a way similar to the Hunter, or operating in a way similar to the Hall Monitor, just like there's nothing wrong with a Security Officer using scanners and forensics as the Detective would.
3. That's a good theory but that's not at all how it works in practice. Very few new players read the rules, and even the ones that do can get a bit confused/flustered in the moment. One of the purposes of this is to make General Security more beginner friendly. Is this 100% the most important thing that needs to be done about security? Well, some would actually argue yes, as there's a number of people who will say that sec needs new/more regulars that are competent, but I also understand if some see it the other way. HOWEVER, is it not being the most necessary thing for sec a reason that it shouldn't be done? No. It doesn't change the fact that it's still a positive thing that it brings to the table.
4. Well here's the thing, you say you've seen good sec round since Cog2, but that's only a momentary thing. More people are playing and some of them are playing sec. Some of them are good, yes. However I've also played on Cog2, and I've seen some really awful sec rounds. But sec will always have good and bad sec rounds, but do you know what I've seen even more than good or bad sec rounds? Dead sec rounds. Rounds with little to no sec, maybe one officer, or maybe a couple of brain dead officers, or maybe even no officers. Currently, sec is not incapable of being good. I have never said it isn't. I even addressed that I never said this in my previous one as I could see you hinting at this. But my point is sec would be MORE efficient, key word being MORE. And no, I'm most certainly not limited by my experiences. I could argue you being limited by your experiences with this logic, because just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it's not there. I acknowledge sec can be good, but I have seen sec more frequently be bad/non-existent. I've seen other people express the exact same sentiment. I've discussed it at length with an admin. I am not limited by my experience, I have branched out specifically to make sure I am not.
And no, I'm not getting offended, I'm legitimately glad that somebody wants to discuss these things at length, however on that note what you said after is rather strange.
Ed Venture Wrote:This fear comes from Captains thinking they can run security and the ways they handle things as normal security officers roles could conflict with the other special class roles and lead to needless arguments when they are all on the same team to begin with
I don't understand the first part about captains. I don't see how that has any standing in this. Do you think a captain might get mad that he can't tell a Hunter to not hide and wait or a Warden to go out into the field?
The second thing I already addressed. There's nothing saying that a General Security Officer can't act like a Hunter, or a Hall Monitor, or a Vice Officer. They'd just be worse at it. It wouldn't be like the in-fighting at Medbay where Geneticists would get pissy whenever somebody busted in because they ignored their cloner, because that was just them getting mad about people being in their space. The only real issue I could see happening is a General Security Officer breaking into the Control Room, but that'd probably be as rare as General Security Officers breaking into and raiding the armory.
Re: More Specialty Security Jobs - Ed Venture - 12-20-2015
The captain thing was just an example. What I was saying is that I've had people as security and otherwise nag me for doing a small portion of their job for the whole round and completely forget about their job in the process. I was saying I feared the same thing could happen with these roles if they were added. Part of me feels these would be more suited for Destiny then cogmap2. Though no way you cut it warden sounds like an insanely boring job to play. Control room or no. I've once had a captain do that to me as a HOP where he forced me to stay in customs all round and it was insanely boring. I mean the warden's job is to watch the brig giving him the power to open doors and use the cameras does not really fit in with the job role if you ask me and would still be equally as boring as time went on.
Re: More Specialty Security Jobs - DyssalC - 12-20-2015
Ed Venture Wrote:The captain thing was just an example. What I was saying is that I've had people as security and otherwise nag me for doing a small portion of their job for the whole round and completely forget about their job in the process. I was saying I feared the same thing could happen with these roles if they were added. Part of me feels these would be more suited for Destiny then cogmap2. Though no way you cut it warden sounds like an insanely boring job to play. Control room or no. I've once had a captain do that to me as a HOP where he forced me to stay in customs all round and it was insanely boring. I mean the warden's job is to watch the brig giving him the power to open doors and use the cameras does not really fit in with the job role if you ask me and would still be equally as boring as time went on.Ed, you wouldn't like it, I get it. You don't understand the appeal and it's not your thing.
That does not mean nobody else would ever enjoy it. Have you noticed there's an alarmingly large amount of people who will play Robotics and just sit in Robotics all round and assemble borgs? Or Geneticists who sit around all round researching genes, even when if there's a high chance they'll never get to use them? Because even though they're confined to one spot for a very long time they have something interesting to keep them engaged. In this case it's the AI-like interface the Warden gets.
Re: More Specialty Security Jobs - SgtBriar - 12-20-2015
I agree with Ed that the Warden, in its role proposed here, wouldn't be fun or good on Goonstation at all. However, I think the control room has a lot of opportunities; why not, rather than making the Warden a shitty prison guard, turn the job concept into a sort of Mission Controller for Security? Have the Warden be able to monitor Officers on cameras as long as they're alive, open non-head level doors for Security Officers (on a small time delay, don't want to make it too easy for criminals), access the Door Access logs, and use the cameras to keep an eye on people (hopefully with the AI's method of controlling them, because as it stands cameras are fucking useless and barely anyone uses them). Make the "looks after prisoners and keeps watch on security" thing a secondary part of the job, not the primary aspect.
I'd play it, anyway.
Re: More Specialty Security Jobs - Ed Venture - 12-20-2015
It's not that I think others would not like it. It's the fact that there could be rounds where they do nothing at all. Robotics is different cause they can make things and learn new ways to enhance people and do much more then just make borgs.
Re: More Specialty Security Jobs - Ed Venture - 12-20-2015
SgtBriar Wrote:I agree with Ed that the Warden, in its role proposed here, wouldn't be fun or good on Goonstation at all. However, I think the control room has a lot of opportunities; why not, rather than making the Warden a shitty prison guard, turn the job concept into a sort of Mission Controller for Security? Have the Warden be able to monitor Officers on cameras as long as they're alive, open non-head level doors for Security Officers (on a small time delay, don't want to make it too easy for criminals), access the Door Access logs, and use the cameras to keep an eye on people (hopefully with the AI's method of controlling them, because as it stands cameras are fucking useless and barely anyone uses them). Make the "looks after prisoners and keeps watch on security" thing a secondary part of the job, not the primary aspect.
I'd play it, anyway.
See this is a cool twist on it. Other then watching the brig they can provide tactical support for the officers and heads how this would go about getting made into the game in beyond me but a cool idea to your idea for it. It would even make things on the RP server cool cause imagine tactical dude in sec having all the info on centcom's enemies gear and possible objectives
Re: More Specialty Security Jobs - SgtBriar - 12-20-2015
Ed Venture Wrote:See this is a cool twist on it. Other then watching the brig they can provide tactical support for the officers and heads how this would go about getting made into the game in beyond me but a cool idea to your idea for it. It would even make things on the RP server cool cause imagine tactical dude in sec having all the info on centcom's enemies gear and possible objectives
I actually think this is the idea trying to being conveyed by Steve in the first place, but the role and description being stated didn't really match it. Having a higher up that can coordinate Security and feed them information that isn't the HoS would help out a shitload. This doesn't really solve the problem of people not playing Sec (although apparently this changed with Cog2? Haven't played it yet), but it's a nice idea.
Re: More Specialty Security Jobs - DyssalC - 12-20-2015
Ed Venture Wrote:So okay, I discussed it with Briar over skype as we are skype friends and now I understand where this issue is coming from.SgtBriar Wrote:I agree with Ed that the Warden, in its role proposed here, wouldn't be fun or good on Goonstation at all. However, I think the control room has a lot of opportunities; why not, rather than making the Warden a shitty prison guard, turn the job concept into a sort of Mission Controller for Security? Have the Warden be able to monitor Officers on cameras as long as they're alive, open non-head level doors for Security Officers (on a small time delay, don't want to make it too easy for criminals), access the Door Access logs, and use the cameras to keep an eye on people (hopefully with the AI's method of controlling them, because as it stands cameras are fucking useless and barely anyone uses them). Make the "looks after prisoners and keeps watch on security" thing a secondary part of the job, not the primary aspect.
I'd play it, anyway.
See this is a cool twist on it. Other then watching the brig they can provide tactical support for the officers and heads how this would go about getting made into the game in beyond me but a cool idea to your idea for it. It would even make things on the RP server cool cause imagine tactical dude in sec having all the info on centcom's enemies gear and possible objectives
I intended for the main focus to be the Control Room. However, I made the descriptions and format for the Original Post in a notepad document I edited overtime. Originally the control room idea wasn't in it until Briar suggested it to me at which point I added it in. I did not however add it to the general description. This seems to be causing a huge communication error that has been making me want to scream at my computer so hard that you feel it just by looking at the thread.
Re: More Specialty Security Jobs - Ed Venture - 12-20-2015
Well you two sold me. If the warden can be built around the idea of a control room made for the purpose of helping the officer out on the station then sign me up sounds amazing.
Re: More Specialty Security Jobs - Frank_Stein - 12-20-2015
Eh, personally I think Sec is alright as all redshirts. Detective is alright since they represent an investigate role and can be played as a PI.
I like the idea of a Control room, but don't think we need a Warden for that.
I think of all the proposed roles, the idea of Hall Monitor is the one I like most. Roles that blue the line between civilian and security are more interesting.
Re: More Specialty Security Jobs - BaneOfGiygas - 12-20-2015
Frank_Stein Wrote:Eh, personally I think Sec is alright as all redshirts. Detective is alright since they represent an investigate role and can be played as a PI.I'll also echo these sentiments, and it's kind of sad that you don't, crime-wise, see much of anything less than mass murder as a security officer. Most of who you chase down are either antagonists or rule-breaking shitlords, and being able to delegate some people to dealing with some of the hooligans would help make security a bit less hard-assed and more entertaining to play as and with.
I like the idea of a Control room, but don't think we need a Warden for that.
I think of all the proposed roles, the idea of Hall Monitor is the one I like most. Roles that blue the line between civilian and security are more interesting.
Re: More Specialty Security Jobs - BaneOfGiygas - 12-20-2015
To elaborate a bit more because I would've edited this in but fuck:
I'm of the opinion that the equipment that the Warden (if this is implemented, it really needs to be called something else) brings to the department doesn't necessarily need to be delegated to a particular job. If you have a security department that is understaffed or just filled with people who don't want to be the Warden, then you're gonna have all of those functionalities sit unused for the entire round. Allowing access to whichever officers are up to making use of the devices enhances the overall usefulness of the department without the requirement of someone having picked a particular job beforehand.
Re: More Specialty Security Jobs - misto - 12-20-2015
make the inspector gimmick job a subset of security
Re: More Specialty Security Jobs - Vitatroll - 12-20-2015
BaneOfGiygas Wrote:(if this is implemented, it really needs to be called something else)Yeah. Gotta call it the Gaoler or something. I couldn't stand it being called a Warden.
People are terrible. No, lets go further. People are shit. Myself included! A secoff is generally going to get a rough time by anybody that isn't in DIRECT danger. Even then you're generally outgunned, outnumbered, and out of luck. Despite the enmity between sec and nonsec, I truly believe that sec is integral to this game's fun. One of my bigger problems with this game is that it often devolves into a game of Cops and Murderers. A lot of times there weren't any Cops to begin with, so then it becomes a game of Murderers and Murderers. It's not even a question of why this happens, really. It's the way the game was set up.
I was gonna comment that, yeah, I like the idea of people being able to choose varying levels of responsibility. I like the idea of a control room too. I would, indeed, like to have these things. I just don't think it will solve the 'problem' though. Most people don't find playing security fun and, even if they do, they generally find the loss of possible antagonist rounds is too high a price. There are ways to fix this, but I doubt they would be looked well upon and I don't like to pollute another's idea thread with ideas that don't stand in line with their ideas.
Re: More Specialty Security Jobs - Archenteron - 12-20-2015
The theoretical monitor/psuedo-AI for security would be the Dispatch Officer, obviously.