+- Goonstation Forums (https://forum.ss13.co)
+-- Forum: Discussion (https://forum.ss13.co/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Ideas & Suggestions (https://forum.ss13.co/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Thread: [PR] Renames Bible to Holy Texts + Moves bible to scripture along with adding othe... (/showthread.php?tid=23432)
[PR] Renames Bible to Holy Texts + Moves bible to scripture along with adding othe... - github_bot - 12-07-2024
PULL REQUEST DETAILS
[INPUT WANTED] [CONTROVERSIAL] [FEATURE]
About the PR
Renames all bibles to the holy texts. Moves bible to be a scripture. Adds scriptures for all irl religions with outfits in the chaplain vendor. Changes atheist trait icon and faith to match.
Why's this needed?
Some context and history on bible changes. Please look through so you don't suggest something that's already been tried and denied.
#15132 was the first iteration of this for the Chaplain Additions project, it also had all of what are scriptures today as bible variants. It was closed due to this reasoning by devs namely @Flaborized (comment says individual opinion but it was acted upon and the final note for closing the PR.)
"I think I said this in the Discord already but I'll say again here: I don't personally (this is my opinion and not an Official Dev View) like the idea of adding lots of reskins to Bibles, since Bibles have tons and tons of unique mechanics tied to them. They kill you instantly if you fart on them, have shared storage, can contain the chaplain's gun, "heal" people, and can damage two specific antags (one of which can't even hold the thing without giving themselves away and taking damage). I think an item with this many important features tied to it should have very consistent visuals, and I don't think making it less clear which item is/isn't a holy book that does all these things is worth the RP potential, especially when you can already make custom books."
#17965 was merged with scripture books and some cool outfits based on these changes, but not the bible redo, although the insignia for the bible change was merged on the vendor.
#21564 was done very recently, it was not rejected but closed by me to make this proposal fresh + I somehow had a merge conflict with secret. The forum responses while mainly were supportive still wanted the bible in some form for RP reasons.
I made this PR because Chaplain represents more then Catholicism here and having some of your equipment have those traits regardless of your religion your actually playing and practising can be a bit jarring. As established only 1 book should have the powerful and potentially round-ending effects of the bible. This makes "The Gameplay Book" neutral in regards to religions just being divine in nature to make sense for any chaplain. The RP alternatives are in the vendor now to appease people effected by that, along with new ones to represent the other religions with existing presence in the game.
Changelog
Code:
changelog
(u)Cheekybrdy
(*)Replaced bible with the holy texts. Bibles are still avaliable but as scriptures in the chaplain vendor. The Quran, Tripitaka, The theory of evolution, Torah and the Guru Granth Sahibih are also now avaliable in the chaplain vendor as scriptures.PULL REQUEST DETAILS
RE: [PR] Renames Bible to Holy Texts + Moves bible to scripture along with adding othe... - Lefinch - 12-07-2024
It's a bit odd to genericise the name but still have a latin cross, but maybe in the future the symbol's been genericized and I understand this is to adhere with maintaining a 1:1 sprite parity, so I have pretty much the same opinion as before: Be prepared for nomenclature inertia, why not, etc etc.
RE: [PR] Renames Bible to Holy Texts + Moves bible to scripture along with adding othe... - Waffleloffle - 12-07-2024
honestly I kind of think it's an issue to add other holy books as mere bible reskins. I don't mean to scope creep, but in my eyes, presenting a lot of other major world religions as different clothes and different books but with the same (admittedly sparse) base mechanics sort of... depicts them as Reskins Of Christianity. which just pushes the christianity-centric chaplain issue a layer deeper instead of fixing it, really
I wouldn't be opposed to this getting in, but I really do think a focused, dev-overseen effort to creatively expand upon chaplain mechanics in appropriate ways would be highly preferable. though, that would certainly require time and work and patience that I'm not sure anyone's particularly eager to spend at the moment
RE: [PR] Renames Bible to Holy Texts + Moves bible to scripture along with adding othe... - Flaborized - 12-07-2024
My thoughts here are my personal thoughts and not meant to represent the entire dev team:
I think the chaplain as they're designed now is meant to (by default) represent a pop-culture film-y version of a priest. Somewhere between "wise old guy healer" and "anti-demonic clergyperson". They're not really meant to *accurately* represent Christianity moreas they're meant to play into media tropes surrounding Christian religious leaders. (See: the hollowed out Bible they carry around that they keep a *gun* inside). A lot of the mechanics centering around this are silly and poke fun at these tropes, and I think because Christianity is so dominant culturally for much of the development team and these tropes are common in Media it doesn't really *feel* like punching down or like we're making fun of people who hold the faith or just being outright disrespectful.
My point there is that our implementation of Christianity is very joke-y and silly. It's not meant to be like a serious, thoughtful piece of representation. I feel pretty strongly uncomfortable extending that representation to other religions because culturally poking light fun at them in the same way is just *not* the same thing. And I think trying to implement them in a way that's wholly respectful to them is difficult in a game like this. Like, you're not really supposed to even put the Quran on the *ground* as far as I'm aware, so in a game where items frequently are coated with vomit and blood I think it's basically impossible to give them a respectful representation either. Both of these possible ways to represent them make me uncomfortable so I don't wanna go for either.
Tldr of the above two paragraphs is that I consider the way we make light of Christianity to be OK and funny but if we applied the same thing to other religions it would be very uncomfortable, and we can't feasible respectfully implement other religions because the game lends itself so strongly to disrespecting items and places with copious gore and messes.
As for the Holy Text change, I think it's far less Funny and iconic compared to what we have with the Bible now. Informing new players that you die if you fart on a "Holy Text" is genuinely just... not even close to as funny to me. The Christianity lean in the chaplain is very deep atm (Their default jumpsuit has a clerical collar, coffins/morgue slabs have crosses on them, they use holy water, they have confession booths, most chapels have a cross carpet design built in, faith has a cross on it, etc etc) that I think changing the default doesn't *really* change much while taking away pretty much all of the humor on the item. I wouldn't mind it being an alternative item you could get somehow though as a generic catch-all for chaplains who don't wanna be Christians. TBH with the design being almost identical to the Bible itself sprite-wise it could probably maintain the mechanics without harming much (and also it's much better in my eyes to have two books that do the same thing than ten). Though the fact that it's meant to be non-denominational but it still has a *cross* on the cover is potentially questionable?
Also this is unrelated to my critique but the PR includes a Theory Of Evolution book which is very funny and possibly should be given to chaplains who have the atheist trait even if this PR doesn't work out.
RE: [PR] Renames Bible to Holy Texts + Moves bible to scripture along with adding othe... - Cropsey - 12-07-2024
I'm a Catholic catechist, so take everything I say as coming from that kind of background. But- in my opinion, the TV tropes chaplain priest is honestly entertaining. As has been said above, the image of the chaplain as seen in the game is very satirical. They prance about in witchfinding gear and shoot vampires. It's not a serious commentary. Biblefarting/ect is funny because it's a subversion what you'd expect.
Changing it to just Holy Text boilerplate is... well, it's boring and I don't really see a reason why it needs such a drastic change. Also the sprite just looks like an offbrand bible, which doesn't really help things. When there's a vampire running around or a ghost terrorising the place, you don't *generally* go looking for your Evil Mc Evil Clown Worshipper. You go looking for the chaplain. (Who, by the way, usually wear the white dog collars- that's what they're called- regardless of faith so that they're actually recognisable) No need to remove a chunk of trope from a bible-thumping vampire shooting trope when just adding more customisation does the same.
HOWEVER - A lot of other servers allow you to choose these things. Some on the character selection screen where you specify chaplain, some on opening your holy book or chaplain gear or whatever. Having the default Holy Text stick around- hell, even just the 'default' bible- until someone first draws Faith or something and then you get to pick from whatever's as an option- is a pretty standard solution. Or even just default-unlocked job rewards to reskin it- from my experience, the main problem at the moment is that the other texts in the machine don't have the same powers as the default bible, which kind of kneecaps you in playing something different if you wanted to.
I do also second that christianity is an easier thing to make slightly satirical, given it's securely established and has some well-worn tropes (which the chaplain role revels in) without treading a super fine line which this game and assorted community isn't going to be able to. Or at least, I don't trust them to.
RE: [PR] Renames Bible to Holy Texts + Moves bible to scripture along with adding othe... - cheekybrdy - 12-07-2024
Added this as a alternative, based of Flabourised comment. https://github.com/goonstation/goonstation/pull/21608
RE: [PR] Renames Bible to Holy Texts + Moves bible to scripture along with adding othe... - KikiMofo - 12-08-2024
I prefer The Holy Bibble filled with the word of Jimmy.
But otherwise I don't think we really need this change. Changing the SS13 bible is just needless meddling in something I don't think anyone cares about.
It just causes people to care about it.
RE: [PR] Renames Bible to Holy Texts + Moves bible to scripture along with adding othe... - Johnny Faith - 12-09-2024
(12-07-2024, 10:35 AM)Flaborized Wrote: Tldr of the above two paragraphs is that I consider the way we make light of Christianity to be OK and funny but if we applied the same thing to other religions it would be very uncomfortable, and we can't feasible respectfully implement other religions because the game lends itself so strongly to disrespecting items and places with copious gore and messes.
Some people, maybe surprisingly, do play Chaplain very seriously. I have played many rounds where I do give a bog standard lesson or teaching. I think it adds to the absurdity of the world of SS13 if there is just a completely straight talking faith leader who is listing droll principles of theology.
I would rather have more religious items with the understanding that at the end of the day it is a video game. If someone wishes to be a rabbi, imam, mobad, pastor or nun, let them do that. It is a roleplaying game ultimately, even on Classic. Like a lot of other broader sensitivity changes, I feel the solution is to warn people being weird about it, rather than cutting the branch for the 90% who will be normal. Its not like chaplain is an especially played class to begin with.
Although, as Cropsey said, it is easier and definitely less controversial to be satirical about Christianity, but I'd still rather let a chaplain player lean into the religion, whether one that exists or is created by the player, of their choosing without having to run a constant analysis in their head.
However, maybe Kiki's point that changing it just causes people to care about it is the most correct
