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+--- Thread: Cargo buff (/showthread.php?tid=23353)
Cargo buff - JohnnyJohn - 11-06-2024
This basically adds several crates that contain department or sub-department specific equipment, typically cardlocked. For example, the botany one would include a gardengear with a restock cartridge, a seed fabricator, a couple of trays, a reagent extractor, a chemmaster, a plantmaster, etc. Every department would have one.
The purpose of this is to allow for replacement of destroyed equipment in the event of station bombing, allow the setup and expansion of new areas for different departments, allow the cross-use of equipment when needed (if a chef needs a botanist, a botanist needs a scientist, a scientist needs a botanist, but there isn't one in the round, etc), and... for the creative staff assistant or two to be able to make a funny meth farm in maintenance and sell pills of it at the public market :-)
RE: Cargo buff - Lefinch - 11-07-2024
I think this is one of those sensible ideas that make sense in reality that might not actually be what we want to do here, I'll discuss why I think that, but I also am not willing to die on the hill for this viewpoint, just putting it out there for discussion so don't feel like I'm saying this is a bad idea.
Right now, cargo gets you some things for departments, device scans, construction, and the ruckgeneering kit gets you 95% of the rest of the way for station items. What's left is the horror of losing the master tapes for the RD, niche equipment pieces and things that for secret or just plain unlikely reasons we probably don't want people to be able to order, construct or scan.
I personally suspect that the very reason the dispensers themselves aren't cargo-orderable is that chemistry can reliably and consistently provide a pathway to: Mething up your staff gremlins every round, gassing out areas every single round, exploding every single round. Providing me my personal "wow I am not going to be doing this regularly" moment of photo-infused arrows that are gloriously disgusting. You still should absolutely be able to get that going, but cargo feels like a slightly too easy pathway to that over making them work a little more for it (and it really is only a little)
Thus, there's already a method to get things remade, as long as they're scanned beforehand. I think the specifics of that are an entirely separate discussion so I won't go on too long about it but it exists so this isn't a feature we're without. So, station bombing or enterprising assistant does have an avenue to set up shop. The stations (with exception of perhaps Atlas, that is really just that tight for spare random rooms) usually have some spare kit lurking around. Thinking about it, you can do stuff like backdoor artifact science using improvised tools, you can usually nab a few spare botany trays depending on map either in very public places, or frankly asking botany (assuming you're dead set or engineering/engie borgs is too busy to scan you some up). You also have the option of bothering the HoP. All those nice little cooperative player action options already exist to get people where you want them: re-equipped from a bombing or doing a little side project. Ultimately, I kind of don't buy needing this idea from the perspective of the crew. So I turn to cargo itself.
I am very pro-new-things-added-to-cargo. We just had an awesome little change (https://github.com/goonstation/goonstation/pull/21136) that among other things, makes potentially adding new things to traders easier/rarer/etc. So if cargo's getting bored and wants more "Candy/fun" crates or something new I'm all for that.
in summary: Don't forget we've already got device scanning/rucks. I entirely personally think it's probably a bit too easy to do things the way you're suggesting and think it's not that hard for crew to get their side projects on, but am totally willing to concede how scanning works now is a separate discussion that might have merit, and I'm all for making new stuff for cargo to sell if they're getting bored.
RE: Cargo buff - JOELED - 11-07-2024
you can already buy a botany starter crate that has trays and a plant analyzer watering cans compost etc, you just need seeds. I don't really have much an opinion on the idea positive or negative but it is worth mentioning that adding full department kits to cargo is going to most frequently just be used to let cargo multiclass into as many departments as possible easier, like the botany crate was before herb prices were changed and reqs added
RE: Cargo buff - Lt487 - 11-07-2024
Maybe you can order these only with some kind of authorization? It makes sense and would help when entire departments get bombed. We could tie this into armory auth but I feel making it its own authorization would be better. something that 3 heads need to auth (or cap auth disk!) which makes repairing the station easier and more of a priority. If these crates get added with just a card lock I still feel like it would be too easy for cargo to become the everything department.
RE: Cargo buff - JohnnyJohn - 11-07-2024
The reason I'm dissatisfied with things as-is is because they all have severe gameplay flaws. Well, why not ask the botanists to do something for you, you may ask? That's because (I play on classic, by the way) the botany department is either staffed by two people that both speedrun rainbow weed and proceed to fuck off for the rest of the round, or it's just not staffed at all. Ever since the lowpop drought that classic has been having these past few months, I've seen like 10 rounds straight of just no botanists whatsoever. This doubly sucks if I'm chef or chaplain or something, and don't have maint or tool storage access.
The reason I push full repair and replacement so much is that it's happened to me. A LOT. I can't even count on both fingers how many times I've tried to use the botany equipment in the soviet derelict, only for some random-ass saw drone to waltz in and permanently delete all the equipment in there, or for all the surgery tables/seed fabricators to be blown up in some TTV attack, thermite molotov, nukie invasion, or what-have-you. Irreplaceable for the rest of the round. And that botany starter crate? It doesn't do jack shit! You don't get gardening tools (save for the scanner), or a seed fabricator, or anything like that. It's super barebones and can barely do anything. Or what about artsci? I've had entire artsci rounds ruined because some transmutation bomb took out the equipment because someone didn't eject it on time. These happen over and over and over and over and over and over and over and OVER, and it'd be nice to have some mitigation measure so that it's not permanent.
RE: Cargo buff - Kotlol - 11-08-2024
It sounds more like Botany needs more incentive to play outside of rainbow weed and selling stuff on the market.
And everytime I go into Botany (on RP) I am going:
"I could do stuff for the chef"
But if I have 4 other botanists.. that could be all my trays to the chef, while I am having fun supporting the chef and waiting for things to go. I am "NOT" doing a small experiment to the side to have fun with.
I am also one of the few botanist players who finds the "weed run" boring.
I prefer mass money trees with high yield to mock people for not having cash money. (or to collapse the economy)
But most of the time I am just making food to mess around with, to give to the chef or sell to people.
So what if Cargo requests something? Well that's where the 1st big problem lays. Botany is too slow most of the time.
Certain plants take almost 10 mins to grow and sure you can find ways to make it grow faster.. but in RP you are now "competing" (you heard me) against your other botanists for resources. Nothing incentivices them to work together to fufill cargo's request.
Cause selling to Cargo doesn't benefit them in anyway shape or form.
And when the chemicals run out and you go to science to request some.. again... the same loop happens: "They don't help botany since they don't need anything from Botany therefore you have to wait long."
As we are now... Goonstation has something of a "Some departments kinda do not need eachother and work self-sufficiently"
And this stuff will make Cargo so self sufficient (wich they already can be) to the point of "why bother?"
In the olden days of when i started playing.. Cargo was KEY to running a station, since they are the only one able to make a huge budget so you can get paid.
But in my biggest opinion...
A lot of interdeparmental interactions barely happen since the basic use is good enough. Why does Botany need Engineering? When something breaks.
When does Botany need Cargo? When they run out of supplies. When does Botany need Science when---
Meanwhile Cargo needs everyone to pitch in to get money, but the station has 0 reason to do it unless they feel like it.
I already many times I suggested: "Have ways to get upgrades from different deparmtnets for your departments to speed up your process."
Mining found a mineral that can be used to upgrade science with the help of mechanics? COOL.
Infact... Robotics despite not having to do much, can upgrade borgs after certain minerals are mined by mining. And then they buy the ore and the money goes to ...Cargo. But you get it.
I want more of this. I do not want to return to "Cargo keeps you paid" cause that's forcing someone to do a job. But more: "Benefits from working together."
Like if Botany does a huge Requistion sale with items only they can get.. Cargo gets money and a crate with stuff that makes botany grow plants faster or able to splice plants more effectively (cause oh boy do I like doing dumb splices of 20%... gimme 80% plz or 100%)
It's these dumb factors that will make the game MORE FUN and MORE WILLING to work together and also give variaty each shift.
Cargo: "I got an order for 10 eggplants! It has an upgrade for you in it botany"
Botany: "On it!"
Imagine the Rainbow weed patrol growing these eggplants and then getting an upgrade so they can splice their dumb weed with apples and grow them in 2 mins?
Suddenly you have incentive to do your silly thing but also your job so you can do something sillier!
RE: Cargo buff - SalmonidJester - 11-11-2024
I think a good compromise between just giving cargo the stuff and having there be no way to replace it once damaged is to have it be like a pack of blueprints, so instead of engineering scanning everything being required every shift, they can just order the blueprints from cargo and use those.
Also adds a limitation other than money, with it now needing the materials as well.
RE: Cargo buff - Skotcher - 11-12-2024
(11-08-2024, 03:40 AM)Kotlol Wrote: It sounds more like Botany needs more incentive to play outside of rainbow weed and selling stuff on the market.
And everytime I go into Botany (on RP) I am going:
"I could do stuff for the chef"
But if I have 4 other botanists.. that could be all my trays to the chef, while I am having fun supporting the chef and waiting for things to go. I am "NOT" doing a small experiment to the side to have fun with.
I am also one of the few botanist players who finds the "weed run" boring.
I prefer mass money trees with high yield to mock people for not having cash money. (or to collapse the economy)
But most of the time I am just making food to mess around with, to give to the chef or sell to people.
So what if Cargo requests something? Well that's where the 1st big problem lays. Botany is too slow most of the time.
Certain plants take almost 10 mins to grow and sure you can find ways to make it grow faster.. but in RP you are now "competing" (you heard me) against your other botanists for resources. Nothing incentivices them to work together to fufill cargo's request.
Cause selling to Cargo doesn't benefit them in anyway shape or form.
And when the chemicals run out and you go to science to request some.. again... the same loop happens: "They don't help botany since they don't need anything from Botany therefore you have to wait long."
As we are now... Goonstation has something of a "Some departments kinda do not need eachother and work self-sufficiently"
And this stuff will make Cargo so self sufficient (wich they already can be) to the point of "why bother?"
In the olden days of when i started playing.. Cargo was KEY to running a station, since they are the only one able to make a huge budget so you can get paid.
But in my biggest opinion...
A lot of interdeparmental interactions barely happen since the basic use is good enough. Why does Botany need Engineering? When something breaks.
When does Botany need Cargo? When they run out of supplies. When does Botany need Science when---
Meanwhile Cargo needs everyone to pitch in to get money, but the station has 0 reason to do it unless they feel like it.
I already many times I suggested: "Have ways to get upgrades from different deparmtnets for your departments to speed up your process."
Mining found a mineral that can be used to upgrade science with the help of mechanics? COOL.
Infact... Robotics despite not having to do much, can upgrade borgs after certain minerals are mined by mining. And then they buy the ore and the money goes to ...Cargo. But you get it.
I want more of this. I do not want to return to "Cargo keeps you paid" cause that's forcing someone to do a job. But more: "Benefits from working together."
Like if Botany does a huge Requistion sale with items only they can get.. Cargo gets money and a crate with stuff that makes botany grow plants faster or able to splice plants more effectively (cause oh boy do I like doing dumb splices of 20%... gimme 80% plz or 100%)
It's these dumb factors that will make the game MORE FUN and MORE WILLING to work together and also give variaty each shift.
Cargo: "I got an order for 10 eggplants! It has an upgrade for you in it botany"
Botany: "On it!"
Imagine the Rainbow weed patrol growing these eggplants and then getting an upgrade so they can splice their dumb weed with apples and grow them in 2 mins?
Suddenly you have incentive to do your silly thing but also your job so you can do something sillier!
I honestly love the idea of department specific requisitions coming with department specific upgrades (including cargo). Cargo does have this feeling of isolation/insulation. You make as much money as you can for bragging rights and are occasionally interrupted by people asking you for random junk.
You get a requisition that benefits botany? Reward is cash for the station, access to a botany specific trader for cargo (that sticks around permanently), and botany gets something like a mutation selector (with the item in one hand and seeds in another, you can select a specific rare mutation).
It would also give folks a reason to ask if cargo has any reqs they can fulfill for them. If someone wants access to a powerful tool, they have to work with cargo to get it. Also gives cargo some fun antag abilities. Manage to fulfill a req order without outside assistance? Maybe you now have access to a tool that can be destructive in the right hands.
I really like the idea that a req targeted towards cargo could give cargo access to a req selector or something (so they could guarantee a botany req order on the next market update).
I kinda hit a point where I'm just spitballing ideas now, haha. Personally, if a reward for a chem req order was a beaker or two that can store 200u (or even a 25u beaker that reactions cant occur in, similar to an artifact beaker), I'd be racing to get cargo whatever they need so I can get my hands on that.