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Goonstation Admin Team - Largeamountsofscreaming - 10-04-2024
Title: Goonstation Admin Team
Admin: N/A
Server: N/A
Date + time: N/A
Synopsis: Over the course of the past few weeks, there has been a growing amount of drama regarding some bans and admin decisions that has led to a notable amount of distrust with Goonstation and its admin team. I have done some research and am hoping to point out a few fail points as to what led to this moment. The following are the concerns that I have found whilst interviewing some players as well as other observations of mine. I made an effort to interview both long-time and short-time players, as well as both those who left Goon and those who still play.
The first concern comes with many admin's general attitude towards players. Whether purposefully or not, admin responses sometimes come with snark and regard players they think are a problem with a dismissive attitude. This is often seen in admin feedbacks where they feel there's little or no discussion to be had, or when PRs and suggestions come in that the developers do not agree with adding. These incidents often show up when feedback is not agreed on by admins, little discussion is given. Admins often remark about laughing at and enjoying feedback posts as something to mock, or respond to a player's opinion or sentiment in the discord with mocking exasperation.
This is often reinforced by the second concern, that being a lack of communication with the community. Admin decisions, unless agreed upon by unanimously to allow them to be discussed, will almost always be behind closed doors and barred from discussion. The benefit of this being that private issues like bans don't go public and thus do not harm the reputation of players. This has an unfortunate consequence that comes with many facets of the game's community such as applications; That being that the admin team sometimes make decisions that confuse the community and leave little to no explanation. This often takes form in highly +1ed applications being denied, suggestions and prs closed for seemingly arbitrary decisions, and frequent posts in the feedback forum regarding unawareness as to why a user was banned. Even changes highly desired by the wider playerbase (See shift-clicking as a cyborg, hair on mutantraces) can be still shut down and highly debated by developers whose desires outweigh the desires of the community.
This issue is often reinforced by admins being often absent from games, either utilizing the admin channel on Discord or silently observing a game/being under the guise of a player. Some have noted an increase in non-RP and downright grief behavior on Goon 3 going untreated. Unfortunately, it's not uncommon that situations that happen quickly, affect too few people, or leave those who were affected unsure if an ahelp is necessary go ignored due to no administration present to catch it. Even with ahelps, some can feel little action is being taken to curb issues.
It has also been noted that there are concerns that admins are entering discord servers as a way to catch players saying things about Goonstation and enforcing rules beyond the Goonstation servers and Discord, citing it as an extreme breach in trust and privacy. Amongst some, there is fear that speaking out against these concerns through Discord or the forums will only lead to being mocked by administration and lead to no change.
The most important thing to remember with these issues is those developing and administrating the game are still humans. Admins are dedicated volunteers of the game who have taken a mantle in order to moderate the game and bring more fun to the community. While the decision to keep admin business on a need-to-know basis is good for confidentiality, it has led to a disconnect that leaves some players concerned to speak their mind. Admins have made a clear point to laugh at and be publicly frustrated by "problem players" who they have banned or been bothered by. While this is usually only in reference to egregious rule breakers, it does not pair well when combined with admins who occasionally hold a harsh tone to players. It creates an environment where even speaking out on small issues makes one feel lumped in with these problem players and expect to be treated the same.
What this leads into further is a disdain for the admin team, feeling as though you don't have a say in a game you enjoy. Those that feel this way will often take to DMs or personal servers where they can discuss their anger with each other without admin intervention. This is most emblematic on private discord servers where many have flocked to complain about the culture and rulings of Goonstation. This is the current state of concern and has led multiple players to feel as though Goonstation is on a downward spiral.
I understand that this post does not name any specific instances of these concerns, nor do I intend to have them. This is not a post designed to point out the flaws of admins or claim this is the regular behavior of most admins, rather it is the result of feeling as though the current ideology of Goonstation's administration team has inadvertently led to these behaviors slipping through more and more, and the proof is over the course of the past few weeks. With multiple long-time players leaving, believing Goonstation is the wrong server to be in or is heading in a poor direction, I can't help but feel something must change. The more that I look, the more I find these opinions are not just felt by those who storm off to complain elsewhere, but with players who want the game to be healthy and strong for years to come.
It's an issue I struggle greatly to find a solution for. Admins are in the end, volunteers, and should not have to double up on community management as well as moderation. However, I feel being promoted to admin comes with more expectations. I fear that labelling oneself a volunteer when accused of not putting in enough work makes it seem as though an admin should expect very little of themselves. Players deserve to be heard and I don't think that a notable portion being afraid to speak up is just a large coincidence. With that being said, feedback has always been open and I don't believe admins have shied the community away from using the feedback forum. The last thing I want is for those to think they don't have a voice to jump to hate-mongering in personal servers.
There are options, of course. A dedicated community manager could be a good addition to the team, though I could foresee concerns regarding expectations and duties conflicting with the established team. More attention to ]anonreport with Medical Assistant or a forum spot could alleviate the stress of self-isolation, with the unfortunate risk being that being truly anonymous would allow for horrid things to be said without being able to be traced back. I believe one of the simpler and better steps is to look at how admins respond to and think about players, particularly in feedback forums. Reducing a dismissive attitude (even if it is entirely warranted) encourages others with issues to not expect to be shamed for asking for improvements.
I have nothing but respect for the Goonstation Admin team, and I want nothing but the best for this game. It's why I felt writing something like this was necessary. I know that there will always be players who will make an effort to bend the game to their will and pout when they don't get their way. I do not condone those who talk behind the backs of admins and others in other servers, but I also know these incidents are symptomatic of a larger problem. I do not expect to change much with this, but to say that there is nothing to be done on either side would not be true. Opening and encouraging players to be vocal on their issues is what best stops problems to stew amongst players and boil over in drama.
Logs: N/A
Extra information: As I've mentioned interviews, I thought it would be fair to put the results and statements of what I found here. This is of course not representative of the entire community, but I have made an effort to get opinions from a wide range of Goonstation experiences. Each bullet is a belief or statement from the interviewee and is not meant to reflect my views. I have elected to keep all results, to include those that do not help my point, in order to maintain transparency.
Person 1
-Lack of communication manifesting as admin apathy due to believing players generally have "incorrect opinions"
-The belief that admin chat must be private unless everyone agrees is holding back communication
-The lack of acceptance to criticism and player input has led players to grow resentment
-Admins rarely ever actually play the game
Person 2
-Admins joining Petey's server for the sole sake of tracking player opinions is a breach of respect and privacy
-Admins almost never play the game
Person 3
-Occasional issues with prs going against devs wishes, but generally understanding of differing viewpoints and without issues in coding
-Whilst sometimes butting heads, is usually never left confused as to why a decision to PR was denied
Person 4
-A feeling that complaining about the current state of goon will lead to a ban
-Using admin feedback is self-isolation, risking ridicule from admins and not being heard.
-Multiple valid points have been made, to no admin action
Person 5
-Only have ever had issues with one admin, otherwise has had positive experiences with admins and has noticed similar respect to all other members of the game
-Believes communication could be clearer, but understands the importance of player privacy
-Rules could be clearer, but still believes most players misinterpret them
-Believes rules could be enforced harsher on repeat offenders, and that the current in-game moderation is good
-Only true concern with moderation is a lack of presence in late hours
Person 6
-The admins lack any transparency with players, and believes there is a possibility of a heavy bias and admin attitude that anything can be said behind closed doors about players
-Admin actions on issues are rarely communicated, and when they are the result is usually poor (Citing a requirement of four ahelps before a powergamer was handled)
-Negative opinion is actively reprimanded or solved with the response "Remember to ahelp"
-A lack of trust for admins to be a neutral party
-Applications are often sporadic in their results (Citing a HoS app that got 4 +1s and was accepted, and a HoS app with 5 +1s denied due to lack of community feedback)
Person 7
-Doesn't believe there is any discontent for players amongst staff, just that staff members approach the goal of keeping the community happy and healthy differently
-Team members are adults and put aside internal biases to reach goals with the team
-Whilst egregious offenses will note some pushback and mock from admins, it will never be held against you nor will you be publicly shamed. This is often abused by players who were banned to present their ban as unfair to people
-Notes that there is a necessity in a flexible guideline for moderation due to the complex nature of ss13
-Feels the team is as responsive and impartial in rule-breaks and moderation as it can be
-Notes the team is composed of volunteers, and is not under obligation to respond or quickly answer ahelps. Ahelps are usually handled even without a response
-Notes that some players will often stick around in communities long after they enjoy it, and will complain rather than change games
Person 8
-Feels generally uncomfortable talking to admins
-Admins are direct and straightforward, but often have a tone of dismissiveness or shaming even when trying to understand the situation
-A feeling that admins hold grudges past the point of reason, causing people to be banned without an explanation or warning.
-Feels responsiveness in moderation is fine, though admits to not ahelping recently. Believes that punishments have begun to become heavy handed
Person 9
-Feels respected by admins
-Notes admins usually step in to sort out arguments well
-Is fairly satisfied with the moderation of servers, though not happy with incidents of long periods between ahelp and action (though they are understanding of why)
-Is generally satisfied with PRs, and notes that admins take feedback well during test merges
Person 10
-Has no concerns of respect and understanding from admins
-Has no issues with moderation
-Notes a few admins sometimes have issues with wording, but otherwise is happy with the clarity and conciseness of admin decisions
Person 11
-Has no concerns of respect and understanding from admins
-Rarely has concerns with respect to others, but has seen admins apologize before
-Has no issues with most dev decisions, and understands the reasoning for PRs they do have an issue with
-In-game moderation is usually fair and players are almost never banned without warning
Person 12
-Has no concerns of respect and understanding from admins
-Has no issues with rules or dev decisions
-Would want more response from admins after ahelps, but understands why they don't happen.
-Sent an anonreport and saw no response or effect
RE: Goonstation Admin Team - klushy225 - 10-04-2024
I was one of those interviewed for this post, and while I won't disclose which one I am, I can say that screaming has done a very good and professional job here.
If the feedback here isn't taken seriously, then it only further validates many sentiments represented in this post.
I don't like that there's drama here, but I can recognize that simply ignoring problems is an unhealthy way of going about this.
The Goonstation that I love is going in a direction that is worrying to me, considering how profound of an impact this community has had on me. For the past few weeks, I haven't felt comfortable communicating in the Discord or even joining a round for many reasons outlined in this post.
This is not to say that the admins are the only ones at fault here, I am fully able to understand that the blame lies with us, the players as well. Before this turns into yet another maelstrom of hurt feelings and fighting, I want to remind everyone here(including myself) that real humans are behind the usernames, and they have feelings and lives as well.
RE: Goonstation Admin Team - ZeWaka - 10-04-2024
thank you for writing this up and doing all these interviews, this is good information just to be out there. varied interviews are crucial to getting actually actionable feedback.
i'm sure some other person or admin will write a much better post, but i am writing.
Quote:admin feedback snark
yes, this is definitely true and I've done it before. the issue is that in my (an Admin) view, feedback/complaint posts tend to only land in a few categories:
Edit: clarification, this post does not land into one of the usual three categories below. it is rare to see insightful thought into the workings of the administration
- yelling about a justified ban: this should be fairly obvious, these actually tend to not be replied to
- positive feedback: actually nice, or could just be brownnosing the admin team because they got banned. both exist.
- a parting shot before leaving the community: these are generally the ones people think of when they're talking about Feedback Posts. generally, we have dealt with said player dozens of times, and we've given them too many shakes. when someone who is permanently banned for being Bad is trying to frame themselves as Just A Good Person, because they're conveniently leaving out everything that made us kick them out in the first place - it can get slightly annoying, as you can see.
this is furthered by the admin guideline: Staff are forbidden to communicate ... to the general public ... notes on ... specific players/groups ...
this is somewhat of a self-kneecapping, and it is possible this guideline could be changed in the future
edit: it has been changed as of 24-10-7, see below
Quote:admin team sometimes make decisions that confuse the community and leave little to no explanation
aside from code stuff, administrative actions like these tend to be due to the admin team having more knowledge about how players act on a server than other players or maybe even their friends do.
like you might know someone as a cool HoS but they're actually extremely Problematic in that they belittle new players and exclude them from roleplaying, which you might not see since you're their friend.
or, perhaps they're actually harassing members of our community on Discord and we really don't want them here, much less in a position of authority.
many such cases. (these are examples from stuff that happened many years ago, do not read into this lol)
Quote:This issue is often reinforced by admins being often absent from games
when most admins are observing just to administrate, and not because they were playing and died, they will set their stealth mode on.
this is mainly due to the extreme behavioral differences players will show when adminwho or similar shows zero admins online.
i know i have not addressed all of your post - parts i have skipped are not intentional, these were just easiest to formulate my thoughts around due to having the most experience with
RE: Goonstation Admin Team - Flaborized - 10-04-2024
Hi the OP of the post opted to delete the thread but we actually think the insights in it are valuable and we'd really rather it exist. We're thinking that possibly it was intended to be private or something like that, but now that it's here we wanna publicly reply to it. Please reach out to us on discord or something if you have a problem with this and we'll try and work something out, sorry for bringing the post back from the dead.
RE: Goonstation Admin Team - Largeamountsofscreaming - 10-04-2024
Apologies for that, deleting the post was a spur of the moment decision and Im glad it was undone, thank you
RE: Goonstation Admin Team - LeahTheTech - 10-04-2024
I'm just going to start by saying that I promise this feedback is and will be taken seriously. I can't promise what will change, but I think it's clear at this point that we need to communicate better and that certain guidelines and standards we hold ourselves to are getting in the way of that.
To answer the part that directly concerns me:
I joined Petey's discord because I like his streams and the people who hang out there, and partly out of a desire to talk to those people in an environment where I'm not an admin constantly speaking from a position of authority.
I have absolutely no desire to enforce rules outside of our servers. The only times we've ever acted on information from other discord servers has been when it has been specifically reported to us that people are blatantly metagaming or bullying other members of our community.
If it's reached the point where my presence in a public discord server is seen as a breach in privacy then all I can say is sorry. No-one should have to feel like they can't speak freely around me.
I'm not a threat, I'm not a cop, I'm not trying to catch you out, I'm just a person who wants to write stupid code for a game I love and right now really needs to go and have a cry.
RE: Goonstation Admin Team - Cropsey - 10-04-2024
I just want to tack onto this- rather than make a whole new thread- I agree with a lot of this, and I think it's unfortunate. In the end it's your game, you're just people, but so are the players. Leah, it's not a you problem. It's the fact that (to my knowledge) there's an impression that we're not allowed to talk about administration decisions anywhere, or risk getting banned ourselves. You're a lovely person. Everyone is on edge.
The recent RP romance clusterfuck is all this in a nutshell. I'm sorry that Jan felt like she was getting the brunt of it- when I used to admin a large discord server, nothing official went out without several check marks. The real problem was in such close proximity to a well known player being banned, the post contained a lot of examples people associated with them. I'm not making a judgement on whether the examples were right or wrong- not my server, circus, monkeys or cup of tea- but it came across as holding someone up as a bad example. Alone, maybe that's fine, I can understand there was frustration on the admin side but from the player side, we were not privvy to that. We saw a player be banned, us being told nothing at all (not even that they were banned) and then a very long post essentially directed (without name) at them, seemingly justifying everything, which honestly just seemed impolite.
I really do worry about being banned without warning for complaining- outside of official spaces, even, which I can understand you don't want it in official ones- and I think that's indicative of the problem Screaming has brought up.
RE: Goonstation Admin Team - Cal - 10-05-2024
(10-04-2024, 11:38 PM)Cropsey Wrote: (to my knowledge) there's an impression that we're not allowed to talk about administration decisions anywhere, or risk getting banned ourselves. You're a lovely person. Everyone is on edge.
...
I really do worry about being banned without warning for complaining- outside of official spaces, even, which I can understand you don't want it in official ones- and I think that's indicative of the problem Screaming has brought up.
Nobody's been banned for speaking about administration decisions though, I'm confused why this keeps coming up.
RE: Goonstation Admin Team - Carton - 10-05-2024
(10-05-2024, 01:32 AM)Cal Wrote:(10-04-2024, 11:38 PM)Cropsey Wrote: (to my knowledge) there's an impression that we're not allowed to talk about administration decisions anywhere, or risk getting banned ourselves. You're a lovely person. Everyone is on edge.
...
I really do worry about being banned without warning for complaining- outside of official spaces, even, which I can understand you don't want it in official ones- and I think that's indicative of the problem Screaming has brought up.
Nobody's been banned for speaking about administration decisions though, I'm confused why this keeps coming up.
I think there's always going to be some perception that those who disagree with authority risk consequences, but in this case on top of that there seems a bit of cause-effect disconnect in public perception of events, because the people who are loudest in their dissent against the admins are often the same people who can't or won't abide by the standards set by the administration, and people can't tell if they're being punished for their dissent or for other misbehavior.
Are they speaking out against the admins because they got banned or are they getting banned because they're speaking out against the admins? I trust that nobody has been banned just for speaking out against the admins, but for players with less trust in the administration, it gets murkier.
It's especially difficult since sometimes misbehavior is tied together with disagreement with the admins. You shouldn't, and from what I've seen won't be banned for publicly disagreeing with the admins, but you should absolutely be banned for being actively hostile and offensive to admins and players who disagree with you, which I believe is what happens on occasion. And of course, that can be viewed as that person being punished for their disagreement, alongside/instead of the hostility.
And of course, this can especially be exacerbated when the individuals involved are those you percieve as friends, as we tend to want to believe our friends are in the right unless we have proof they aren't, and nothing is made public to prove that they aren't.
I'm not arguing for or against any changes, or criticizing anyone with this to be clear, I'm just sharing my theory on where those perceptions come from.
RE: Goonstation Admin Team - Mouse - 10-05-2024
This isn't going to be easy to write, and there's a solid chance I'm going to stop writing while still having things that I ought to say. If I do, maybe I'll write a followup. Maybe I won't. I'm not really a fan of conflict or drama or any of that sort of thing. I might not even submit this. In any case my thoughts aren't overly organized and I don't think I'm going to go to the trouble to organize them.
I have been playing for, I believe it's been five years and nine months at this point. Not nearly as long as a lot of you folks, but it's what, a third of the game's existence? Not nearly as short as it feels. While I play, or used to play, pretty regularly, I don't really interact with the people here as a community. I post on the forum, sure, but I don't really use Discord. I don't know anyone outside of the game, nor have I ever made any attempt to. What I see about things that go on behind the scenes is scarcely more than any random person who drops in on a whim would see. All I know comes from OOC chat in-game and occasional snippets and hints of things in posts that, in all honesty, are probably made by people in a heightened emotional state.
A year or so after I started playing, there was a massive schism between admins. I'm not here to rehash it. What little I know and bothered to remember puts me on the side of the admins that stayed. However, this sort of thing is something that I've witnessed in online communities several times. They often don't survive. Those that do may bear very little continuity with what came before. I was worried that a place that I enjoyed being was going to fall apart around me once again. Thankfully, that didn't happen.
Now, I'm not sure if that sort of thing happened before I started playing. I wasn't there. What I do know is that since then, several high-profile admins have left, and the impression I got from what little was said about things it seems like internal disagreements among the administration team played a major part. Popecrunch made a whole thread about it. Was he right? How should I know, I'm working blind here. I do know that, after he left dramatically, Pope Crunch cereal got renamed and the ad spot about it was removed. Perhaps he asked for that to be done. I might have in his shoes. But to an outsider, who doesn't see any of that, it looks like a petty move on behalf of the administration team.
Warcrimes would leave later, and now Zamujasa. Now that's only three admins over four years; for all I know that could be standard levels of hemorrhaging for Goon. In both cases what little I saw mentioned suggested internal disagreements. I don't really know anyone here. I have fun playing with a bunch of people, I have fun talking with a bunch of people, and now people I have fun playing and talking with and fighting with other people I have fun playing and talking with over situations I know nothing about and never will. I cannot rationally take a side, since I know nothing about what's going on. I can't irrationally take a side, because I don't know any of you any better than anyone else. That said, I can look at patterns.
What I see strongly suggests that there is some sort of internal disagreement among the admin team, one that has been going on for a very long time and which has gotten very heated. We, the players - we don't really see any of it. It's like a bandage over a festering wound. We don't see what's under it, but that doesn't mean we can't notice that something is under it. Will antibiotics clear it up or is it fatal? Perhaps I ought to have used a less nauseating metaphor. Perhaps I ought to have brought it up earlier. Perhaps, ought, et cetera. There's no point dwelling on what ifs - they can never be anything other than what ifs.
Again, I cannot see this wound. I may believe that I can smell what is seeping out from under the bandage and infer that there is such a wound, but I could always be in the precursor to a migraine, or perhaps Eau de Rotting Corpse is the hot new fragrance. I am making an assumption that is, on the balance of the evidence I am aware of, a reasonable assumption to make, but that doesn't mean it's right. (It's only going to get less coherent from here.)
If I notice something, even if I notice it wrongly, then it would be reasonable to assume other people notice it, even if they too notice it wrongly. To stick with what might be the worst metaphor to ever exist in the English language, the rot's going to be noticeable no matter how tightly you wrap the bandage, and without treatment it's just going to get worse. If you know what the stench of decay is, then you're going to be on edge. Do we need to amputate? Will we even survive? If you've never experienced it before, well, that doesn't stop it from turning your stomach. You know something's wrong, even if you don't know what and even if you don't know you know. Maybe it's all a little less fun. Maybe you do something different. You find an excuse not to breathe in the miasma.
So what, do you rip off the bandage and bring whatever arguments and drama and ill-will that have been festering in the darkness out into the light? Will that make things better? Maybe it'll be nothing, and everyone will live happily ever after, except the people who implied that there was something, who are now shown to be filthy, rotten liars. Maybe it'll be something, and people will start taking sides as people are wont to do. There might be a situation in which everyone comes out looking fine, but personally I can't imagine what it is. Someone's getting hurt if the bandage comes off. Worst case scenario, everything you built, everything we built, it all falls apart.
So you leave the bandage on, and it keeps stinking, and everyone keeps being paranoid, looking askance at any departure, at any ban. Paranoid people get nervous. Nervous people get twitchy. Twitchy people make suboptimal decisions. Worst case scenario, everything you built, everything we built, it all falls apart, but this time in slow motion. Perhaps you can pick up enough new blood to make up for the hemorrhaging. But perhaps the blood willing to wade into an abattoir isn't going to help things.
Listen, I cannot offer a solution. I cannot offer hope. I cannot make things better. That's not who I am, that's not why I'm here, and frankly an amateur writer of nihilistic short horror fiction is just about the last person to ask if you want a path forward.
Everyone wants something different from this stupid farty spaceman game. Sometimes these wants overlap. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they contradict. They aren't constant either. What do you - not just you as in the admin team, but you as in everyone here - want most? The game? The community as a collection of a group of specific people? The community as an abstract concept, the individual membership of which may be completely replaced over time but which still possesses a sort of permanent identity? The community as abstract as possible, which possesses continuity as its only immutable trait, the Ship of Theseus rebuilt into the Log Cabin of Theseus? What are you willing to give up should your wants contradict? What aren't you willing to give up?
This is an incoherent mess and I'm not convinced it contains a single thing I actually wanted or needed to say. Perhaps I ought not to press "Post Reply".
RE: Goonstation Admin Team - MrLilRobot - 10-05-2024
Sorry to input on this but I believe it's relevant to say. In regard to the lack of communication with the community some things are best left undiscussed for the sake of the people involved, especially people impacted by things that have happened for their own mental health. There are absolutely reasons why people are denied from positions of power and that's not everyone's business. I don't think the community should have a say on the matter if someone should or should not gain positions of power or should or should not be banned, the rules should be enforced even with people who are bigger faces in the community. Opinion being passed on HoS/mentor apps are nice but at the end of the day as ZeWaka nicely said, you may not fully know what people you’re friendly with are truly like.
Is there room for the admins to improve? Sure, but honestly there’s room for us to improve too. A recent attempt from Jan to communicate with the community to reassure people on points regarding rule 4 and romance was honestly distressing to see. The reaction from a few of the community was gross and I personally think shameful. The day that notable faces in the community don’t get banned or given consequences for acting inappropriately or breaking the rules the rest of us follow in fear of public backlash and hate towards the admin team is the day I’ll never come back to this server.
We need to remember they are people too as you’ve mentioned; people who have lives, families, jobs and emotions. Yes, the admins have an expectation of work even as volunteers, but I don’t believe we see quite the scope of the work they do already as an outsider looking in. Maybe town hall meetings should start up so problems can be addressed in a better and healthier manner and so community voices can be heard instead? Or as mentioned a community manager. People shouldn’t feel like they can’t talk to admins about things in fear of backlash and knowing some of the admins here I know that’s not the attitude they want people to have. They’re where they are in my opinion because they care about the community.
If anything is taken away from this, I hope it’s the town hall part because I feel it would be a really cute and nice way for the community and admins to be heard and communicate better than what’s happening now. Sorry if I made any grammatical errors, I’m eepy and thanks for the post :> <3
RE: Goonstation Admin Team - Lefinch - 10-05-2024
It's clear I do not have the full information about the situation. Aside from saying "it's good people are providing feedback" and "I haven't had any particular problems myself" and, probably most suppositional and as a result could be way off: "This seems like some deep personal problems as a root cause for friction on all sides but also frankly I don't know enough to be sure so I am not getting involved beyond this"
I, and this is just me: Don't actually think it's going to be healthy fully unveiling the full details of any major conflict or decision process when they crop up, which they will and will continue to do so for pretty much any group of more than 1 person for anything. I do think feedback like this is perfect for proper consideration by those involved and would suggest that anything we can do to make it as clear as possible that we really don't need Screaming to conduct a series of interviews and that someone without cost or fear can just go "hey here's my feedback" in a way that's reliably convincing then great. What exactly that is I do not know, as it's not an issue I've ever encountered while providing feedback, but if people are putting in feedback via this method for whatever reason then finding a way to get past that impression seems like a good idea.
I'm reading what everyone's writing and I appreciate that the general sentiment now regardless of everything else is: We want this to work and not hurt people, how can we make that work. As for me, I don't think there's much else I can say aside from this, thanking people for providing their thoughts and agreeing that if there's anything I can do then let me know.
RE: Goonstation Admin Team - LeahTheTech - 10-05-2024
Quote:What I see strongly suggests that there is some sort of internal disagreement among the admin team, one that has been going on for a very long time and which has gotten very heated. We, the players - we don't really see any of it.
I can say that this is 100% not the case at the moment. I wasn't around for any of the Pope stuff so I can't really comment on it, but Zamujasa's removal was an exceptional case that was a long time coming and is not (as far as I can see) emblematic of any deeper issues among us (ඞ) as a team.
We do of course disagree and argue but frankly we're the most united we've been in a while at the moment. There is no hidden war or conspiracy, there's just us doing our best.
RE: Goonstation Admin Team - jan.antilles - 10-05-2024
(10-04-2024, 11:38 PM)Cropsey Wrote: The recent RP romance clusterfuck is all this in a nutshell. I'm sorry that Jan felt like she was getting the brunt of it- when I used to admin a large discord server, nothing official went out without several check marks. The real problem was in such close proximity to a well known player being banned, the post contained a lot of examples people associated with them. I'm not making a judgement on whether the examples were right or wrong- not my server, circus, monkeys or cup of tea- but it came across as holding someone up as a bad example. Alone, maybe that's fine, I can understand there was frustration on the admin side but from the player side, we were not privvy to that. We saw a player be banned, us being told nothing at all (not even that they were banned) and then a very long post essentially directed (without name) at them, seemingly justifying everything, which honestly just seemed impolite.
As I said in the thread: my post was made exclusively for the purpose of reducing player anxiety. I saw comments from you and others when everything happened, expressing uncertainty about what the lines were. My post was made to mirror the one that I previously made about RP Rule 1, and lay out explanations and examples about what behaviors are and aren't a problem. The examples were pulled off the top of my head, both things that happened in the past across the years I've been an admin, or things I made up (edit: except the "those really happened" things like the rolling around farting. Those DID happen.). Calling out ANY player was the exact opposite of my goal. I had no intention to shame anyone or make anyone a "bad example," only to clarify things for players who were confused or alarmed about the guidelines.
RE: Goonstation Admin Team - Cal - 10-06-2024
(10-04-2024, 04:49 PM)Largeamountsofscreaming Wrote: -Admins rarely ever actually play the game
-Admins almost never play the game
I wanted to address specifically this.
I also often thought this before I became administrator.
These are specifically my own thoughts on this.
1. This is not true. I play in secret mode occasionally, but rarely entire rounds nowadays.
2. Seriously, 45 minutes~ ish for classic, and a whopping hour and 30 minutes (more like hour 45 with shuttle) is a huge amount of time to dedicate as an adult. Most admins move on from regular player to being an "event dm" sort of, because it lets them hop on, have fun, make others have fun, and leave at their leisure.
3. People treat us weird. That's just the way it is. I do not feel comfortable playing characters I usually play because people treat me weird. I'm not blind, I notice.
This ranges from "I'm going to harass this admin" which has happened to me more than once, to "Oh god, an admin, I better avoid them," to "Ooh, an admin! I'm going to stick to them like glue and maybe I'll get treats/cool stuff will happen to me!"
More - We sometimes run into the incredibly awkward situations of "Someone is breaking the rules, and I'm trying to play the game. I am now compelled to deal with this even though I am just trying to relax and play." and "There's an admin playing! I'm going to make an ahelp/bug report to them, while they are playing the game."
Like, it's hard for us to play! It sucks, but that's the reality of it.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and naturally answering ahelps means I'm just not getting to play because I'm doing that instead