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+--- Thread: remove spy until it is better (/showthread.php?tid=2299)
remove spy until it is better - Shoddy - 03-11-2014
Spy is an indiscriminate murder fest, until it is fixed (if even possible) please remove it, the original concept has been lost. Honestly rev was way more fun.
Re: remove spy until it is better - Lantern - 03-11-2014
Shoddy Wrote:Spy is an indiscriminate murder fest, until it is fixed (if even possible) please remove it, the original concept has been lost. Honestly rev was way more fun.
Honestly, Spy just seems like Rev a lot of the time.
An example. I was an engineer, and the CE was a spy. So, he implanted the entire engineering staff and a mechanic, and killed the QM. 30 minutes later we have 3 artillery pods flying around causing discriminant destruction, not caring who the spies were. That being said, it was FUN, but no where near what spy was suppose to be.
Re: remove spy until it is better - Sundance - 03-11-2014
I made a big long-winded post on how to make spy better and then deleted it because it really boils down to this:
Multi-use implanters are shit, just as rev flashers were shit. It's akin to replacing micheal bay with m night shyamalan.
The coders/whoever introduced it clearly didn't understand the problem. The problem is the ability to CHOOSE teams. When players choose teams, they choose:
A) Good players. This in itself pretty meta, but it's one of those things that honestly can't be avoided unless you are going to the effort of implanting the same dude round after round when you pick traitor, which then is just shitty.
B) Players with high rank. Why bother implant a staff assistant when there's the captain there who will give all access ID's to your crew.
Now it's just a race to who can get the better team. It's like when you are a kid playing basketball at who can pick the better player first to be on their team. And that ain't cool.
A fix for this would be remove the multi-use implanter entirely, do away with the pda traitor toys and dagger, and instead make the team of 4-5 pre-selected, only you don't know who is on your team, you have to make the effort of finding them (and potentially getting backstabbed) in the process, through codewording. A surplus crate can be deployed as a verb, and that's all the toys you need.
Re: remove spy until it is better - Captain_Bravo - 03-11-2014
Sundance, that idea has been suggested a ton, and it never goes anywhere. Start small. Why not campaign for random spy teams? Once that's been added, we can move on to doing away with PDA and dagger, adding a surplus crate, code words, etc. I mean, since that didn't work the last time someone suggested it, it makes sense to scale down the proposal and see if a smaller change is feasible. Start with random spy teams, one guy is picked for the head, give him the dagger and PDA, and have his accomplices start off mind-slaved.
This would solve both of the problems you addressed, and would also add in the wrinkle that usually spies are either a posse of heads, or a bunch of people from one department. A gaggle of engineers or scientists is normal, and not really cause for alarm. When a scientist, an engineer, a staff assistant, and the clown all start hanging out together, that's a bit tougher to explain away. And once we're at that point, then we can start addressing ways to make it even more fun, such as code words and random gear and shit like that.
Re: remove spy until it is better - BlackPhoenix - 03-11-2014
Sundance Wrote:you have to make the effort of finding them (and potentially getting backstabbed) in the process, through codewording. A surplus crate can be deployed as a verb, and that's all the toys you need.
Literally every time codewords have been used in a gimmick or an attempt at spy mode, it leads to groups shouting over the radio "SOUP'S ON IN THE CHAPEL. COME TO THE CHAPEL, SOUPS ONS." "BUT WHERE'S THE BREAD, RIGHT?", making it very obvious.
Re: remove spy until it is better - atomic1fire - 03-11-2014
Why not make spy more like NUKE.
Make it a team of traitors who have a special radio and are dressed like members of the crew. Make one person team leader and maybe give the others cool roles.
Note that that idea is heavy on RP and might lean closely to TF2 in space.
Re: remove spy until it is better - Sundance - 03-12-2014
Captain_Bravo Wrote:Sundance, that idea has been suggested a ton, and it never goes anywhere. Start small. Why not campaign for random spy teams? Once that's been added, we can move on to doing away with PDA and dagger, adding a surplus crate, code words, etc. I mean, since that didn't work the last time someone suggested it, it makes sense to scale down the proposal and see if a smaller change is feasible. Start with random spy teams, one guy is picked for the head, give him the dagger and PDA, and have his accomplices start off mind-slaved.
This would solve both of the problems you addressed, and would also add in the wrinkle that usually spies are either a posse of heads, or a bunch of people from one department. A gaggle of engineers or scientists is normal, and not really cause for alarm. When a scientist, an engineer, a staff assistant, and the clown all start hanging out together, that's a bit tougher to explain away. And once we're at that point, then we can start addressing ways to make it even more fun, such as code words and random gear and shit like that.
It's not like any idea's on this forum are implemented outright anyway. This sounds like a solid, good first step.
BlackPhoenix Wrote:Sundance Wrote:you have to make the effort of finding them (and potentially getting backstabbed) in the process, through codewording. A surplus crate can be deployed as a verb, and that's all the toys you need.
Literally every time codewords have been used in a gimmick or an attempt at spy mode, it leads to groups shouting over the radio "SOUP'S ON IN THE CHAPEL. COME TO THE CHAPEL, SOUPS ONS." "BUT WHERE'S THE BREAD, RIGHT?", making it very obvious.
And I see no problem with this. Yelling over the radio your codewords will
A) Reveal your codewords, and allow people WHO ARENT on your team to pretend like they are. Don't be surprised if joe mc scrubbs was actually part of the other team, and ended up murdering half your crew.
B) Even worse, if someone has anyway organised one or two of their crew, they'll have a raid at the chapel.
C) Security, who aren't mindslaved, will be notified of your actions. That and the AI will more than likely fixate it's eyes to the area your broadcasting.
So sure, shouting over the radio MAY get some people from your crew to join. But in essence it's an awful tactic to use in the long-run
Re: remove spy until it is better - BlackPhoenix - 03-12-2014
Sundance Wrote:So sure, shouting over the radio MAY get some people from your crew to join. But in essence it's an awful tactic to use in the long-runThe problem that rises is there will inevitably be one guy who shouts it over the radio, even if everyone else wants to do it right, ruining the codeword. It's also the case that it always seems to happen that way, somebody shouts it over the radio, and it just turns into an indiscriminate murderfest all over again.
Re: remove spy until it is better - Bobbeh - 03-12-2014
remove spy and replace it with skeletons imo
Re: remove spy until it is better - Shoddy - 03-12-2014
There shouldn't have to be code words, just have anonymous PDA IDs so they can choose where to meet, still possibility of getting found out if one of your guys has been killed \thrown away his PDA like a dummy.
That or remove spy
Re: remove spy until it is better - Sundance - 03-12-2014
Shoddy Wrote:There shouldn't have to be code words, just have anonymous PDA IDs so they can choose where to meet, still possibility of getting found out if one of your guys has been killed \thrown away his PDA like a dummy.
That or remove spy
How would the anonymous pda's work exactly?
I think we can all agree though, that the multi-use implanters are bad, yes?
Re: remove spy until it is better - Shoddy - 03-12-2014
Multi use implanters are bad, also just have the ringleader have the names of his crew so he can contact them.
Re: remove spy until it is better - thehman03 - 03-12-2014
I actually had a recent round with good codewords, but it was lucky so eh, but we were all botanists so i would just say "hey guys the melons are ready" and everyone would run back to botany.
ANyways, it was quite boring when this one guy started refusing orders even though he was mindslaved. On topic: Yes, do remove it as it is quite bad right now. It really needs some work.
Re: remove spy until it is better - Lantern - 03-12-2014
Shoddy Wrote:There shouldn't have to be code words, just have anonymous PDA IDs so they can choose where to meet, still possibility of getting found out if one of your guys has been killed \thrown away his PDA like a dummy.
That or remove spy
why not give the spy leaders a special pinpointer that tells them exactly where their team members are? That way, you can track them down, talk to them in private, and eventually set a meeting place in a secret location to being planning. Maybe the pinpointer flashes blue when you are on the same screen as a team member?
Re: remove spy until it is better - Bobbeh - 03-12-2014
why not have spy leaders know eachother's names + have the S thing on the edge of the sprite