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+--- Thread: Rule 5 and the Mining Level (/showthread.php?tid=22853)
Rule 5 and the Mining Level - JackMoloney - 06-20-2024
Rule 5 states that rushing through the debris and adventure zones for items is prohibited. Oddly, the Mining Level, which is separate from the two, is omitted from this statement. Is this on purpose, or is it an oversight?
I have seen a variety of players on RP go to the Mining Level to pick up valuable tools from its relevant Outpost, which has insulated gloves, multitools, belts, and other goodies that are otherwise department limited. In addition to this, I have often seen players go to other key prefabs, such as the
And this isn't including general players also; antagonists go to the Mining Level as well, such as Scavengers, for the sole purpose of getting more scav-credits, or Arcfiends, for the sole purpose of getting some free power.
If Rule 5 does include the Mining Level in spirit, then this is a widespread issue, and ignoring it will cause other players to think that it is acceptable to go through the Mining Zone for items.
RE: Rule 5 and the Mining Level - meaow589 - 06-21-2024
In my opinion if that tool is not relate to your job/role I think it should be ahelp.
However mining field/asteroid field is randomly generate which mean there are not always guarantee that thing will always spawn for example from something you mention “portagene” that thing not always found every round.another example should be more discuss like “engineer-mining tool” for hacking , space walk is something can find-order in station with quite low effort.so I think that is not big deal and should be a option in case antag or player who want to do some gimmick.so my opinion is I think that will not break to rule 5 in RP however you mention player do it “every round” which is relate to general rule 3 “meta gaming “ and if you see the player with the same name has that stuff every round that should ahelp definitely.by the way this is just player opinion and if you not sure about it you can always ahelp.for example you doindplayer who always go to Martian ship to get MK.3 phaser for pod weapon every round yes that should ahelp.
RE: Rule 5 and the Mining Level - Lord_earthfire - 06-21-2024
Theres a difference between rushing a zone and scavenging it for loot.
You cannot really rush the mining level, because the zones are randomly generated.
Keep in mind, the items are there to be used. It's explicitely important for salvagers because of their weak power level.
Azone loot are there to survive the azones and as a reward for the exploration. If you rush them at roundstart, you are misusing them.
And if people go to the mining area every round, though, this is covered by the powergaming-rule.
Tl;dr: people going to mining field for items is alright. However, if they do it every round as non-salvager/miner, i would ahelp them for powergaming.
RE: Rule 5 and the Mining Level - Tyrant - 06-21-2024
I feel like the random generation makes it much harder to "rush". when it says rush, i believe it means specifically seeking out stuff you know the location of for a fact. The mining level on the other hand is intended to be explored and is random, so that's probably why it's exempt.
In future though, questions about rules should probably be sent to admins directly, using ahelp in game or medicalassisatnt "]report" command on discord. Asking here will get many different interpretations on rules from different people, but the only place to get a properly correct answer is from the people who enforce the rules
RE: Rule 5 and the Mining Level - GreenJelly - 06-21-2024
Hello, we have always considered rushing specific mining level prefabs for items to be on the same level as rushing Azones for their respective loot. That being: In isolation it can be fine but we do note if it turns out to be a pattern of behaviour. The Rule was written before mining level prefabs were a thing and has not been updated with that specific verbiage as the action fell very much under the Spirit of the Rule.
As there appear to be some confusion here we will update the Rule to explicitly include the mining level prefabs, but our rulings have not changed.
Jelly
RE: Rule 5 and the Mining Level - jan.antilles - 06-21-2024
(06-21-2024, 01:12 AM)Lord_earthfire Wrote: You cannot really rush the mining level, because the zones are randomly generated.
They get rushed all the time, since people memorize the silhouettes of the ones they're interested in and then check the mining map at roundstart.
RE: Rule 5 and the Mining Level - Silent Majority - 06-21-2024
I liked your wording jelly
That hitting up a space prefab in isolation is different then going there every single round for your gamer gear.
On a sec player side I've cetainly noticed that tech storage is no longer the smoking antag gun it used to be.
Is salvagers salvaging prefabs really rushing though? Their job is to walk up to pre existing items put them in a bag and run home
RE: Rule 5 and the Mining Level - JackMoloney - 06-21-2024
(06-21-2024, 06:37 AM)GreenJelly Wrote: Hello, we have always considered rushing specific mining level prefabs for items to be on the same level as rushing Azones for their respective loot. That being: In isolation it can be fine but we do note if it turns out to be a pattern of behaviour. The Rule was written before mining level prefabs were a thing and has not been updated with that specific verbiage as the action fell very much under the Spirit of the Rule.
As there appear to be some confusion here we will update the Rule to explicitly include the mining level prefabs, but our rulings have not changed.
Jelly
Many thanks for the feedback. Was confused about it as the mining field and azones are fundamentally different (one is static, other is randomized and has a NT area), which is further shown in your response with the slight leeway in isolation compated to Adventure Zones, which have none at all. The responses to this post also show the varied player interpretations of the rule.
RE: Rule 5 and the Mining Level - jan.antilles - 06-21-2024
(06-21-2024, 10:19 AM)JackMoloney Wrote: the slight leeway in isolation compated to Adventure Zones, which have none at all.
Her response began with "we have always considered rushing specific mining level prefabs for items to be on the same level as rushing Azones for their respective loot." They are not treated differently. There is no "leeway" to rushing loot off station on RP just because it's in a mining prefab and not an azone.
RE: Rule 5 and the Mining Level - JackMoloney - 06-21-2024
The text following immediately that statement follows with "that being" and then immediately explains how its fine in isolation, which is otherwise unacceptable for Azones due to the powerful items they contain. Which one is right?
Its an annoying clash of comprehension as admins have a 100% understanding of what the rules mean, even with open ended vagueness or spirit of the law, while players don't always get that level of comprehension as evident on other player comments.
Also, wouldn't it eliminate a lot of confusion to just say "rushing loot off station" to encapsulate everything including future content instead of explicitly stating Z-levels?
RE: Rule 5 and the Mining Level - UrsulaMejor - 06-21-2024
If you do the thing one time because it made sense in that specific round in that specific situation in the rp you were doing with the other people who were there, or in other words, "in isolation", it's fine. Same as azones.
If a pattern of behavior emerges where it becomes apparent that you are engineering situations to get powerful loot every round, or in other words, not in isolation but as part of a pattern of behavior, it is not fine
There is no leeway or difference in how they are treated. If you mysteriously always have insulated gloves and tools and money and other loot from the mining z level every single round without fail, you will likely be grumped at.
That is the most clear cut example. You aren't going to get a more specific explanation than that because each time you break the rules is evaluated in context, so deliberating on it here, in the forums, outside of any context is virtually meaningless. The rules aren't a programming script executed by a rules robot, they are a set of principles that are applied using the judgement of human beings
RE: Rule 5 and the Mining Level - GreenJelly - 06-21-2024
Quote:Is salvagers salvaging prefabs really rushing though? Their job is to walk up to pre existing items put them in a bag and run home
In my view, while it is "fine" for Salvagers and Arcfiends to get a starting boost by for instance hitting the Space Diner, the preference would be for them to sooner rather than later start hitting things on the station proper so there can be more interaction with the crew. A round where the crew is trying to chase off magpies and electric vampires is usually more engaging than one where the antagonists spend the whole round taking abandoned derelicts apart where nobody can see them.
Regarding the "in isolation", Jan and Emily clarified it quite well. Looting Azones and looting Mining Prefabs or other locations like that is the same. It is not a question of how isolated the location is, it is a question of if it is an isolated incident. Apologies if the word choice caused further confusion.
Jelly
RE: Rule 5 and the Mining Level - JackMoloney - 06-21-2024
(06-21-2024, 10:51 AM)UrsulaMejor Wrote: If you do the thing one time because it made sense in that specific round in that specific situation in the rp you were doing with the other people who were there, or in other words, "in isolation", it's fine. Same as azones.
If a pattern of behavior emerges where it becomes apparent that you are engineering situations to get powerful loot every round, or in other words, not in isolation but as part of a pattern of behavior, it is not fine
There is no leeway or difference in how they are treated. If you mysteriously always have insulated gloves and tools and money and other loot from the mining z level every single round without fail, you will likely be grumped at.
That is the most clear cut example. You aren't going to get a more specific explanation than that because each time you break the rules is evaluated in context, so deliberating on it here, in the forums, outside of any context is virtually meaningless. The rules aren't a programming script executed by a rules robot, they are a set of principles that are applied using the judgement of human beings
Many thanks for the elaboration, my current perception of it is too black and white in that case.
The reason why I thought there is a 'slight leeway' is because of the consistent mention of a "pattern of behavior," or going to prefabs to get the same gear often. What makes me scratch my head is that instead of saying "going there for the sole purpose of picking up loot," which would mean that looting for the sake of loot at ANY point is against the rules, there is an emphasis on repeated behavior. Does that mean that going there once in a blue moon is fine? Or is the only way to really detect it is through a pattern in behavior? This is where the initial confusing for me started from the mention of 'isolated' cases, as I had thought they were isolated in time/oftenness of doing it.
Not trying to find loopholes. I'm just a little stupid.
RE: Rule 5 and the Mining Level - Kotlol - 06-22-2024
As someone who has rushed Mining levels for stuff I can say this.
I am fine with it being covered by the rules to NOT DO IT.
As the things I go for are always: "Things for dumb chaplain gimmicks like Clown Spiders for a clown spider habitat to the honkmother"
Or such. The only moment I think I did it for some sort of mega benefit was gold bars to purcase something for the chaplain.
I only do this as a chaplain for my round gimmicks, as it takes 15-20 mins to fully setup if I do it by myself or 10 mins if I have help.
And it's not like I am rushing to grab a big gun. But still I'd knock it off if peolpe say don't do it.
Heck on Oshan I don't even enter other lanes, I just walk to the flock ship and grab flock stuff for a flock cult.
RE: Rule 5 and the Mining Level - zjdtmkhzt - 06-23-2024
the mining map should probably just have generic markers or something on it for prefabs anyway so that you cant just rush things based on the silhouette, but adventuring players can still find things and explore