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+--- Thread: Improvements to Oshan and Geothermal (/showthread.php?tid=22852)
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Improvements to Oshan and Geothermal - Scaltra - 06-20-2024
Hello! I am looking for feedback and ideas about Oshan and how geothermal power works. What are the pain points for so many people on the map and how could we maybe make those better!Currently, I feel a genuine concern for people and why so many people are not a fan of Oshan, to begin with, is its method of power generation. Unlike most maps, it is all but certain to impact the rest of the crew aside from engineering. It has multiple hotspots wandering around the station at any given time, becoming a problem either when one or more of those hotspots meet up or when mining has mined up one or more of those station-bound/ located hotspots to the point they are strong enough to cause serious damage to the station on their own let alone overlapping.
Then recapturing them or moving them off the station also becomes a bit of a problem because of walls and access restrictions. I feel like mining is also at odds with what engineering would prefer mining to do when it comes to Oshan as well. Oftentimes overpowering hotspots when it isn't wanted or removing sources of further empowerment when it is.
I think as a baseline a more deliberate way of mining to aid with hotspots would be a good start in preventing the station from going into chaos and getting obliterated randomly by a fully mined-out hotspot on the station the miner is completely unaware of what they have unleashed. Maybe a mechanic to mine the floor of the hotspot area in the trench or a new special tile that would be hot and could be walked over that follows the hotspot that could be mined up to do the same as the old mechanic? Not really sure what the new method would be but something to just make it more deliberate. I think it is fine that miners can cause that chaos but many aren't trying to and it just...happens while they do their own thing.
Another thing that would be really nice is either hotspots not having a route through the station by default or if a hotspot is on the station it gives an automated alert to its location potentially. I don't think that is required but it would be a nice QoL without putting too much of a damper on traitors sending a hotspot stack into the station to cause trouble.
Lastly, a QoL that would be really nice for geothermal would be dousing rods ignoring any pinned hotspots when giving a readout and multiple hotspots are in the area. or ignoring two and always pointing to the nearest one. They become mostly useless if two are within its scan radius or require you to run around and find the edge of one and then walk it in.
Would love to hear your thoughts and ways we could improve the feel of the map both from an engineering perspective and also from a general player perspective as well.
RE: Improvements to Oshan and Geothermal - JOELED - 06-20-2024
My main problem with Oshan is just that there's usually no or very few engineers on rounds w/ it (speaking from a classic experience), moreso than other maps, and that it's way more of a negative effect on the round to not have those engineers. No solars means without geothermal setup there's NO power, and hotspots nearly always mean that several areas end up breached. Shifts on oshan nearly always seem to end with a pretty early shuttle call, because the combination of tons of breaches + no power is just exhausting on top of the usual antag pressure. I don't play engineer on Oshan myself because of all the hassle with running around dealing with getting into access-locked departments and around walls to try and figure out where the hell the hotspot that's half destroyed security is. Part of that could just be lack of experience making it harder for me to understand the readouts to find the answer quickly, but it doesn't really matter: in the end, I'm just not going to play engineering on oshan. I love the map, and I want to vote for it, but knowing there's likely to be those power and hotspot problems due to understaffing usually stops me from doing so when there's so many other maps I like that don't have them.
All of your suggestions seem like a fine basework to me. I'm not the most knowledgeable about the current state of hotspot code, but giving things more feedback/QOL and making them more intentional sounds like they'd be good steps to me.
RE: Improvements to Oshan and Geothermal - Fuppy - 06-20-2024
There are certainly parts of Oshan engineering I enjoy quite a bit. I like hunting for hotspots out in the ocean to set up power, and it can be satisfying hunting for, and pinning, hotspots on station. Issues arise when either mining is too good at their job as mentioned, or you're the only engineer actively working on anything, or worse: a combination of both. I have had some of the most stressful engineering shifts on Oshan just from mining doing well, which isn't their fault of course, and being alone pinning hotspots. Oshan is a map I basically never do any mechcomp stuff on because I know I'll be pulled away from it near constantly.
I really like the suggestion given of mining being able to aid in some way and take some workload off of engineering, as I really don't mind the hotspots drifting through the station. Only when there are several of them, and they're all causing breaches or exploding rooms with welding fuel in them. This and the suggestion of pinned hotspots not showing would be a very nice QoL change, as it can be very frustrating trying to find a second hotspot that is too close by.
RE: Improvements to Oshan and Geothermal - meaow589 - 06-20-2024
Geothermal is fine if we have atleast one engineer work from it since 2-3 of it is enough to generate power to 3 smes and yes if we have other department help should be great like mining. Also Oshan is regular place that people might start singulo instead of hotspot in case they don’t like hospot.and the thing that look like solar for sea map is erh.. no one touching it so if you really want to improve thing in sea map you should start with that.
RE: Improvements to Oshan and Geothermal - JackMoloney - 06-20-2024
I agree; being punished simply because another department is performing well sucks, and trying to get hotspots on station can be a serious hassle.
In my opinion though, I think Oshan's issue stems from the fact of how easy it is to 'space'... or 'water', I guess. Trying to repair a break in the outer walls is very annoying, and easy for an antagonist to do. I have seen rounds where antags on both Oshan and Nadir do nothing but repeatedly break the outer walls, and due to the lack of forcefields between doors, water floods everywhere forcing management of internals.
In addition, the design of the station leaves little for antags who are trying to make stealthy gimmicks, as compared to those based in space, it is very compact and harsh when it comes to staying out of sight and ear. This is especially harsh in RP.
The lack of the debris field and mining outposts are also quite annoying, even as a non antag. Items that could have been otherwise easily accessed now have a lot more difficulty to them, or are simply not possible to obtain, both for the detriment and benefit of the station.
RE: Improvements to Oshan and Geothermal - Azurnite - 06-20-2024
(06-20-2024, 04:22 PM)Scaltra Wrote: Lastly, a QoL that would be really nice for geothermal would be dousing rods ignoring any pinned hotspots when giving a readout and multiple hotspots are in the area. or ignoring two and always pointing to the nearest one. They become mostly useless if two are within its scan radius or require you to run around and find the edge of one and then walk it in.
I think personally the dousers should still be able to read pinned hot spots to better find their location and help with stacking, but I do agree that it is annoying to have a pinned hot spot give off readings when there are more than one in a particular area. So my suggestion is that the dousing rods could be updated to have two modes perhaps. One that targets pinned hot spots and one that targets loose hot spots. Could be worth mentioning that even a scanner function of how many hot spots are in a particular location would be nice: how many pinned vs how many free. Of course the scanner would not show where they are, just how many there are.
RE: Improvements to Oshan and Geothermal - Lord_earthfire - 06-21-2024
(06-20-2024, 04:22 PM)Scaltra Wrote: Lastly, a QoL that would be really nice for geothermal would be dousing rods ignoring any pinned hotspots when giving a readout and multiple hotspots are in the area. or ignoring two and always pointing to the nearest one. They become mostly useless if two are within its scan radius or require you to run around and find the edge of one and then walk it in.
Ignoring pinned hotspots would kill most methods of hotspot stacking. I would like for them to be able to only show the nearest one, though.
In general, im not a fan of the other suggestions. They simply dance around the issue rather than try to solve it.
The issue is too many roundstart-active hotspots on station side that overwhelm engineering.
That's why i have a simple suggestion:
Pin any hotspot on roundstart whose center is on a station tile.
This way, the only active hotspots on station will be ones that were near the station and wandered into it. Or ones delocated by antags.
This means that engineering will have to handle much fewer hotspots at a time. And neither antags nor engineers are hampered by the mechanics. Lastly, why would BT build the damn station and not pin the hotspots at the construction side???
RE: Improvements to Oshan and Geothermal - Kotlol - 06-21-2024
(06-21-2024, 01:25 AM)Lord_earthfire Wrote: This means that engineering will have to handle much fewer hotspots at a time. And neither antags nor engineers are hampered by the mechanics. Lastly, why would BT build the damn station and not pin the hotspots at the construction side???
Budget Cuts.
But in all fairness, I think the hotspot engine is "okay" at best. It's the weakest way to generate power as once it's setup it's enough, but the only way to make it better is by stacking hotspots wich a hassle!
The belt hell power supply is a cool mechanic even if I do not understand any of it... (I have yet to make that one work for me)
And since it takes away my attention from hot spots in the station or fixing.. I more often ignore it.
In my opinion... I am fine with hotspots bubbling up in the station, but then I want a console that shows and tracks them constantly.
But honestly, I want more interaction and tools with the hotspots we farm. Or ways to reroute hot spots then just "Stomping and pinning them"
But that's just me... I have not much to think off. My problem with Oshan comes that hot spots are just annoying.
And while the system is cool and all. There has to be a way for engineering and mining to work together to control the hot spots better.. like maybe engineering can install pipes in the trench to divert the hot spots to a location they want.
RE: Improvements to Oshan and Geothermal - Lord_earthfire - 06-21-2024
Quote:But in all fairness, I think the hotspot engine is "okay" at best. It's the weakest way to generate power as once it's setup it's enough, but the only way to make it better is by stacking hotspots wich a hassle!
![[Image: Oshan_engineering_2.png?ex=66767be6&is=6...c2cd29ae2&]](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/890223118482800790/1250168502933782568/Oshan_engineering_2.png?ex=66767be6&is=66752a66&hm=82743c64be4f7234f70866327dcaadb884185eab107052963733c93c2cd29ae2&)
Geothermal is overall stronger than the nuclear reactor and stronger than many TEG-setups, if done properly. Like most engines, scaling it is definetly possible.
There could be some more ways to do that, though.
RE: Improvements to Oshan and Geothermal - Scaltra - 06-21-2024
(06-20-2024, 06:36 PM)meaow589 Wrote: Geothermal is fine if we have atleast one engineer work from it since 2-3 of it is enough to generate power to 3 smes and yes if we have other department help should be great like mining. Also Oshan is regular place that people might start singulo instead of hotspot in case they don’t like hospot.and the thing that look like solar for sea map is erh.. no one touching it so if you really want to improve thing in sea map you should start with that.
I think you may be a bit mistaken the catalytic engine is not on Oshan. That is a Nadir exclusive thing. Oshan has no solar alternative that I am aware of.
(06-20-2024, 09:53 PM)JackMoloney Wrote: In addition, the design of the station leaves little for antags who are trying to make stealthy gimmicks, as compared to those based in space, it is very compact and harsh when it comes to staying out of sight and ear. This is especially harsh in RP.
The lack of the debris field and mining outposts are also quite annoying, even as a non antag. Items that could have been otherwise easily accessed now have a lot more difficulty to them, or are simply not possible to obtain, both for the detriment and benefit of the station.
I am not sure if you have checked the oshan station map but a lot of those locations are shifted to the station Z level and are rarely interacted with if you want somewhere to stealthily do dastardly deeds.
(06-21-2024, 02:48 AM)Kotlol Wrote: But honestly, I want more interaction and tools with the hotspots we farm. Or ways to reroute hot spots then just "Stomping and pinning them"
But that's just me... I have not much to think off. My problem with Oshan comes that hot spots are just annoying.
And while the system is cool and all. There has to be a way for engineering and mining to work together to control the hot spots better.. like maybe engineering can install pipes in the trench to divert the hot spots to a location they want.
That would actually be so nice, some more tools to get hotspots around, even if it costs a premium would be so nice. I like stacking hotspots but you know what is actually rather boring? Sitting there moving a Hotspot.
Hell especially station side hotspots which when hot are basically a well I guess I need to pin this on station now which never actually feels great because I would rather have access to it for more power potentially.
Some way to teleport, super bump etc would be really cool. Or even like some sort of upgrade or thing that would let you move a Hotspot the typical way but it is pinned while doing it at least on station so you can safely move it off station.
A temporary device you could use to cool a Hotspot for a certain amount of moves or time could also be neat.
(I didn't mean to make this all one reply but...oops)
(06-21-2024, 01:25 AM)Lord_earthfire Wrote:(06-20-2024, 04:22 PM)Scaltra Wrote: Lastly, a QoL that would be really nice for geothermal would be dousing rods ignoring any pinned hotspots when giving a readout and multiple hotspots are in the area. or ignoring two and always pointing to the nearest one. They become mostly useless if two are within its scan radius or require you to run around and find the edge of one and then walk it in.
Ignoring pinned hotspots would kill most methods of hotspot stacking. I would like for them to be able to only show the nearest one, though.
In general, im not a fan of the other suggestions. They simply dance around the issue rather than try to solve it.
The issue is too many roundstart-active hotspots on station side that overwhelm engineering.
That's why i have a simple suggestion:
Pin any hotspot on roundstart whose center is on a station tile.
This way, the only active hotspots on station will be ones that were near the station and wandered into it. Or ones delocated by antags.
This means that engineering will have to handle much fewer hotspots at a time. And neither antags nor engineers are hampered by the mechanics. Lastly, why would BT build the damn station and not pin the hotspots at the construction side???
I think the best idea for the Rods so far has been some sort of mode switch, ignoring pinned, targeting nearest Hotspot, targeting all etc. Would be really nice and intuitive.
I think pinning the hotspots on station round start could be interesting and sometimes be better but most often would probably just make things worse when one drifts in. That basically guarantees that the hotspots are where you didn't want them to begin with and now any additional hotspots are going to cause damage regardless of if mining boosted them or not.
Personally if this mechanic was in place now the first thing I would do would be check my trench map to see where the station hotspots roughly are and then move them off station because I know they will eventually become a problem anyway, if a decent bit are pinned on station because that is how they decided to spawn this shift I Pity the people who didn't know and then while trying to pin the new hotspot they now dislodge the already pinned one and created two or pin one only for the other to now become a problem that was pinned at round start.
I think pinning them if they spawn on station is a half measure. It would probably be better to just not have them spawn on station at all if modifying hotspot round start dynamics.
RE: Improvements to Oshan and Geothermal - Zamujasa - 06-21-2024
oshan's engineering is fine imo, people just don't know how the engine works or don't care. it's not hard to set up and a single hotspot without any bonuses will easily power the station indefinitely
some thoughts:
- falling in the trench is usually a death trap because you can't get back out. space is a death trap too but you have to get flung off the station level for that and space is open, the trench is very closed
- flooding sucks but flooding is also pretty minor all considered. it's annoying but a lot less harmful than a spaced hallway
shrug
RE: Improvements to Oshan and Geothermal - Scaltra - 06-21-2024
(06-21-2024, 10:36 AM)Zamujasa Wrote: oshan's engineering is fine imo, people just don't know how the engine works or don't care. it's not hard to set up and a single hotspot without any bonuses will easily power the station indefinitely
some thoughts:
- falling in the trench is usually a death trap because you can't get back out. space is a death trap too but you have to get flung off the station level for that and space is open, the trench is very closed
- flooding sucks but flooding is also pretty minor all considered. it's annoying but a lot less harmful than a spaced hallway
shrug
That is true, in my experience though either the station runs mostly okay and it is like any other map. Or, and often times it is more likely as the round goes on.
Mining either oblivious to the damage they are causing or don't really care opened up a crap ton of hotspots and are on station causing breaches and problems for everyone.
Which is why one of my starter ideas is some way for mining to more deliberately open hotspots instead if it being something passive people just do.
That is another problem I have with hotspots is oftentimes they cause more trouble than any antagonist and damage things everywhere.
Like nadir has a passive threat with its acid ocean, people leverage it to cause trouble and make things difficult. Hotspots are just a force of nature that seem to really irritate people. I am grumped at a fair bit on oshan for the stuff hotspots do or how they are delt with. Dealing with one once it is somewhere and it is bad is also rough because you either decide to pin it and it is delt with for now till a new one may or may not show up and be even worse because of it. Or send it off to some corner of the map but it will destroy more stuff as it leaves and it feels like people get mad at you for whatever you choose because they don't know how it works.
I just don't think the absolute default for oshan should be as destructive as it is and require so much maintenance from engineering. Including miners in that who are just trying to do do job actively making things even more damaging.
RE: Improvements to Oshan and Geothermal - Zamujasa - 06-21-2024
the game specifically tries to avoid putting hotspots on the station and in my experience the damage to the station is pretty minimal unless someone is actively trying to buff them.
solving it is as "simple" as just bringing a stomper over and giving the hotspot a gentle nudge to somewhere it'll cause less problems, like genetics or off-station
RE: Improvements to Oshan and Geothermal - meaow589 - 06-21-2024
(06-21-2024, 09:52 AM)Scaltra Wrote:That exactly what I mean there is nothing like that in there and Oshan should have something like that.(06-20-2024, 06:36 PM)meaow589 Wrote: Geothermal is fine if we have atleast one engineer work from it since 2-3 of it is enough to generate power to 3 smes and yes if we have other department help should be great like mining. Also Oshan is regular place that people might start singulo instead of hotspot in case they don’t like hospot.and the thing that look like solar for sea map is erh.. no one touching it so if you really want to improve thing in sea map you should start with that.
I think you may be a bit mistaken the catalytic engine is not on Oshan. That is a Nadir exclusive thing. Oshan has no solar alternative that I am aware of.
(06-21-2024, 09:52 AM)Scaltra Wrote:That exactly what I mean there is nothing like that in there and Oshan should have something like that.(06-20-2024, 06:36 PM)meaow589 Wrote: Geothermal is fine if we have atleast one engineer work from it since 2-3 of it is enough to generate power to 3 smes and yes if we have other department help should be great like mining. Also Oshan is regular place that people might start singulo instead of hotspot in case they don’t like hospot.and the thing that look like solar for sea map is erh.. no one touching it so if you really want to improve thing in sea map you should start with that.
I think you may be a bit mistaken the catalytic engine is not on Oshan. That is a Nadir exclusive thing. Oshan has no solar alternative that I am aware of.
RE: Improvements to Oshan and Geothermal - Scaltra - 06-21-2024
(06-21-2024, 05:38 PM)meaow589 Wrote:(06-21-2024, 09:52 AM)Scaltra Wrote:That exactly what I mean there is nothing like that in there and Oshan should have something like that.(06-20-2024, 06:36 PM)meaow589 Wrote: Geothermal is fine if we have atleast one engineer work from it since 2-3 of it is enough to generate power to 3 smes and yes if we have other department help should be great like mining. Also Oshan is regular place that people might start singulo instead of hotspot in case they don’t like hospot.and the thing that look like solar for sea map is erh.. no one touching it so if you really want to improve thing in sea map you should start with that.
I think you may be a bit mistaken the catalytic engine is not on Oshan. That is a Nadir exclusive thing. Oshan has no solar alternative that I am aware of.
(06-21-2024, 09:52 AM)Scaltra Wrote:That exactly what I mean there is nothing like that in there and Oshan should have something like that.(06-20-2024, 06:36 PM)meaow589 Wrote: Geothermal is fine if we have atleast one engineer work from it since 2-3 of it is enough to generate power to 3 smes and yes if we have other department help should be great like mining. Also Oshan is regular place that people might start singulo instead of hotspot in case they don’t like hospot.and the thing that look like solar for sea map is erh.. no one touching it so if you really want to improve thing in sea map you should start with that.
I think you may be a bit mistaken the catalytic engine is not on Oshan. That is a Nadir exclusive thing. Oshan has no solar alternative that I am aware of.
ahh I getcha, yeah maybe that can help. I see way more people that I have talked to bugged by the damage and the frequency of needing to do nothing besides repairs and moving hotspots off the station. There is more pressure to get a hotspot going right away but honestly it isn't that tough to get one real quick for station power
(06-21-2024, 04:15 PM)Zamujasa Wrote: the game specifically tries to avoid putting hotspots on the station and in my experience the damage to the station is pretty minimal unless someone is actively trying to buff them.
solving it is as "simple" as just bringing a stomper over and giving the hotspot a gentle nudge to somewhere it'll cause less problems, like genetics or off-station
Some shifts have been like that and it is that simple, others the miners are going ham and completely buffing a hotspot accidentally or an engineer says to mine X hotspot and mining decides to mine all of them. Like when it is just...burnt tiles and a bomp away I don't care. When it becomes tedious and multiple are breaching the station (which happens more often than not in my experience), is more so what bugs me and doesn't feel that simple. I know other engineer players I have talked to also just aren't a fan of those disaster situations that just seem to happen a lot on Oshan. Like a singularity becoming loose is an easy fix once it is busted and you just repair, TEG you put out whatever fire. Hotspots are numerous and are boosted by mining simply doing exactly what they should be doing and not paying attention to the honestly easy-to-miss sparks or not caring.
I think there is more to people not liking ocean and geothermal stuff past just not understanding it