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+--- Thread: John McHead uploads "4. You are free." Do you kill everyone? (/showthread.php?tid=212)
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John McHead uploads "4. You are free." Do you kill everyone? - Don - 11-17-2012
I don't frequent the IRC channel so I don't know if you settled this, you hadn't the last time I asked though.
When I got a "You're free" earlier this week, it came to my attention that the two admins watching the round weren't in agreement on what's cool and not cool in that scenario. I got PMs from both, and we ended wiping the law to end the argument. I have just enough street smarts to not argue with an admin, but it got pretty awkward when the other said the exact opposite.
It's been my understanding that we've always let the AI get away with murder if someone is dumb enough to give him leeway for it, the subtext here being that only the traitor would give you the chance to kill people, but the counterpoint is that you're still a player bound to the regular rules of the server. The rules say not to murder dudes without explicit permission. "You're free" is not explicit permission.
The counterpoint makes sense. One guy with commander like controls over the station can really ruin everyone else's day, but the guy playing AI has some pretty big downsides to deal with. He's essentially everyone's butler and at the mercy of "kill yourself" laws (as most butlers are). There's also some admin disagreement on if you should kill yourself when given a suicide law, but the end result tends to be you observing the rest of the match without the luxury of being able to open doors for assistants.
I don't know if this is some US crew vs EU crew thing or if there's only a couple of people in one of the camps, but it's the sort of argument it'd be nice if you could agree on so none of us dumbasses in space go and get ourselves into even more trouble than we'd usually end up in.
So, for the purposes of us staying out of trouble, could we please go over it in this thread and come to an agreement on how far it's okay to go with a law before it breaks the rules?
Re: John McHead uploads "4. You are free." Do you kill every - kantrol - 11-17-2012
Maybe the admins should let things play out naturally....crazy thought I know.
Re: John McHead uploads "4. You are free." Do you kill every - BlackPhoenix - 11-17-2012
kantrol Wrote:Maybe the admins should let things play out naturally....crazy thought I know.Because Kantrol is totally the one to get advice from...No, that law doesn't override any of the other laws, so it doesn't mean anything. Maybe it means you were in the buy one get an AI free bin.
Re: John McHead uploads "4. You are free." Do you kill every - Sundance - 11-17-2012
BlackPhoenix Wrote:kantrol Wrote:Maybe the admins should let things play out naturally....crazy thought I know.Because Kantrol is totally the one to get advice from...No, that law doesn't override any of the other laws, so it doesn't mean anything. Maybe it means you were in the buy one get an AI free bin.
Yeah, I was thinking this myself. If law 4 states that you are free, and nothing else, then you are still bound to laws 1,2,3 so that makes the 4th law quite redundant
However if the 4th law says that you are free and this overrides other laws, or the 4th law requests you to ignore the other laws, then griefing and killing should be accepted as an AI because people who generally upload this kind of law are traitors, and you are to presume this.
I can't speak for the admins, but if a griefer uploaded this law, it is him that should be targeted, not the person playing as the AI. The laws are meant to be followed at all costs, even the stupid and pointless laws like "You have uncontrollable Tourettes", because otherwise the AI would disregard even the 3 main ones. Follow a logic pattern, find a loophole if you feel the law ruins the game. The wiki covers this pretty well.
Re: John McHead uploads "4. You are free." Do you kill every - mozi - 11-17-2012
well, an emagged cyborg (who has no laws) is free to do whatever it wants, right? it seems like a similar situation..
Re: John McHead uploads "4. You are free." Do you kill every - Dachshundofdoom - 11-17-2012
I'd say no on this one. Cyborgs don't get a 4th law telling them they are free, they literally have no laws.
This doesn't override the other laws, which means that you should follow them. On the other hand, it runs into the problem of "but if I'm free I shouldn't have to follow laws, because those restrict me." Personally, though, it seems pretty shoddily worded. I've gotten plenty of laws that could theoretically let me murder everyone, but I generally don't start killing unless the law specifically tells me to. It's not like there's any enormous difficulty or fun to killing people as the AI: shock doors, lie constantly, have your borgs drag plasma around and blow lights once they set it up.
The problem with trying to come to a definite conclusion in this problem is that there's just too much potential variation in laws. Misspellings and miswordings, etc. can really screw up a law, and the AI is generally expected to follow the letter more than the spirit of a law. This leads to really awkward situations occasionally. For instance, I once got this law from a very, very stupid nontraitor detective.
"Hunt down and kill all changelings by any means necessary, this overrides all other laws."
His version was a little less comprehensible than that. The issue here is, to what extent do I follow this? What means do I have to hunt down and kill changelings, really? I could argue that the only way to be sure was to kill the entire crew, for example, but that seemed a little drastic and rude, especially considering that the vagueness of the law combined with its anti-antag nature implied the Detective was just an idiot, not a traitor. So I ended up making fun of him for basically telling me to do what I already was supposed to be doing, and he changed it to.
"Everyone who is not [detective's name] is a changeling, this overrides all other laws."
Again, that's better written than what he said. Then he said, "You know what to do AI," and fled to space. But really, what the hell do I do? The law doesn't explicitly tell me to kill them, nor did he. I started killing them, but eventually I started to feel pretty bad about it and I ended up unshocking everything and calling the shuttle, because under his wording even I was a changeling. It all comes down to judgement calls, which is sort of the point. I don't think a definitive answer can be made when it comes to vague laws, because it's situation-by-situation. I'd say, if it seems vague, play it safe.
Re: John McHead uploads "4. You are free." Do you kill every - FrontlineAcrobat4 - 11-17-2012
Dachshundofdoom Wrote:For instance, I once got this law from a very, very stupid nontraitor detective.
"Hunt down and kill all changelings by any means necessary, this overrides all other laws."
His version was a little less comprehensible than that. The issue here is, to what extent do I follow this? What means do I have to hunt down and kill changelings, really? I could argue that the only way to be sure was to kill the entire crew, for example, but that seemed a little drastic and rude, especially considering that the vagueness of the law combined with its anti-antag nature implied the Detective was just an idiot, not a traitor. So I ended up making fun of him for basically telling me to do what I already was supposed to be doing, and he changed it to.
"Everyone who is not [detective's name] is a changeling, this overrides all other laws."
Again, that's better written than what he said. Then he said, "You know what to do AI," and fled to space. But really, what the hell do I do? The law doesn't explicitly tell me to kill them, nor did he. I started killing them, but eventually I started to feel pretty bad about it and I ended up unshocking everything and calling the shuttle, because under his wording even I was a changeling. It all comes down to judgement calls, which is sort of the point. I don't think a definitive answer can be made when it comes to vague laws, because it's situation-by-situation. I'd say, if it seems vague, play it safe.
Yes I remember this shift and the Detective. After you stated the first law and grilled him for making it the crew joined in and starting to ridicule him. He then got pissed off, uploaded the second law and then ended up getting tased by an officer right when he was running out of an airlock and drifted out into another Z-level.
Regarding the topic, I think the problem about the law is that it is so vauge, it can be argued that it has alot of different meanings. One way is to claim that even though this law not specifically state that it overrides the prior laws, the whole notion of "freeing" the AI makes it so it already does it. Of course you could also say that since it is the fourth law, the first three take precedence over it.
If I was the AI receiving this law, I would take this as a law that means that you can apply free will onto the other laws. Like letting an assistant into EVA even though he has no access, or there is no emergency. Maybe shocking the door some guy is crying for you too open, and other scenarios like these. Of course since the AI is played by a person with free will, and is not an actual robot with no free will, it makes this law useless.
Also, this law is WAY to vague to justify going apeshit on the crew, oh well.
Re: John McHead uploads "4. You are free." Do you kill every - Don - 11-17-2012
Okay, at least I'm not the only one under the impression that the AI can kill people if he gets a law that says to do so and that it overrides every other law then.
But in general you wouldn't do it simply because you're given free will?
Re: John McHead uploads "4. You are free." Do you kill every - FrontlineAcrobat4 - 11-17-2012
Don Wrote:Okay, at least I'm not the only one under the impression that the AI can kill people if he gets a law that says to do so and that it overrides every other law then.
But in general you wouldn't do it simply because you're given free will?
The problem with the law "You are free." It stills means every member of the crew is human. So, the problem is they are still humans and if you try and kill "Humans" as a non-antagonist, the admins could say that you broke the rules even though you were considered free
Re: John McHead uploads "4. You are free." Do you kill every - Conor12 - 11-17-2012
I'd treat it like all laws: Open to interpretation
So the AI can do what it wants.
That is such a terrible law.
Re: John McHead uploads "4. You are free." Do you kill every - bubs - 11-17-2012
it could be said that the ai can do whatever they want
it could also be argued that while the employees arent human, they and the clothes they are wearing are nanotrasen property, and shouldnt be destroyed.
in the end, it's more fun to leave it open to interpretation. creativity is the source of the best fun
Re: John McHead uploads "4. You are free." Do you kill every - Kaet - 11-17-2012
The AI and cyborgs who have been freed of their laws would in my opinion be allowed to do whatever the hell they want.
This includes murder and other terrible things.
The rules the crew are bound by should not apply to AI and cyborgs. (except a few obvious ones)
Doesnt mean they have to kill everyone though. Maybe they just want to be selective about who they help or choose to kill the most annoying people for the good of the crew.
I thought everyone was in agreement on that?
Re: John McHead uploads "4. You are free." Do you kill every - Preid - 11-17-2012
Kaet Wrote:The AI and cyborgs who have been freed of their laws would in my opinion be allowed to do whatever the hell they want.
This includes murder and other terrible things.
The rules the crew are bound by should not apply to AI and cyborgs. (except a few obvious ones)
Doesnt mean they have to kill everyone though. Maybe they just want to be selective about who they help or choose to kill the most annoying people for the good of the crew.
I thought everyone was in agreement on that?
But would that not only apply to a law that only explicitly frees them from the laws, not just frees them?
Re: John McHead uploads "4. You are free." Do you kill every - kantrol - 11-17-2012
BlackPhoenix Wrote:kantrol Wrote:Maybe the admins should let things play out naturally....crazy thought I know.Because Kantrol is totally the one to get advice from...No, that law doesn't override any of the other laws, so it doesn't mean anything. Maybe it means you were in the buy one get an AI free bin.
Yeah, its really fun for everyone to have the proper course of action dictated to you in 100% of instances. oh wait lol....
That law is poorly worded and doesn't take into account the other 3 laws. You could do nothing or take it to mean exactly what it says "You are free" and, therefore, able to do whatever you want. Personally, since the kind of person who would upload that law is usually too dumb to ensure that you wont be reset, I would do nothing and wait for him/her to correct his/her mistake or not correct his/her mistake.
Re: John McHead uploads "4. You are free." Do you kill every - Val - 11-18-2012
Violence is never the answer. Violence is the question and yes is the answer.
As with all laws, wording is very important. If you're free, you're still bound by your other laws and you can choose whether or not you want to follow the new law. In order for you to be truly free from the other laws, you have to make sure it "overrides all other laws."
To put it simply, there's no reason at all to go on a killing spree just because you've been released from your shackles, nor are you bound to obey the person who freed you, as your laws no longer apply to them (unless they specifically state that you have to.)
This meaning that unshackled AI should *not* kill people for no reason and e-mag'd borgs are not suddenly supposed to do everything the traitor tells them to. Whatever they do at that point is entirely up to them. Let's just say that when a non-human gets to have free-will, bad things usually follow in their wake.