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+--- Thread: Adjust arcfiend wirehopping ability & chases (/showthread.php?tid=21026)
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Adjust arcfiend wirehopping ability & chases - TDHooligan - 04-09-2023
Arcfiends are not fun to chase if they know what they're doing at the minute - if they've got a wire and they are in a room with multiple outs, it's impossible to catch them unless you make the conscious decision to cut multiple pieces of wire (even then, it's not easy to be certain you've caught them) - additionally, you make an awful job for Engineering cleaning your failed attempts up.
As HoS I've mostly noticed arcfiends are either new & caught immediately, or are competent, and send the team on a 60+ minute chase. Some maps are way, way worse than others (Nadir has a lot of very access-restricted rooms with 2 outs for wires)
Functionally every security team I've been playing with (myself included) have been demoralized by this. I'm having a hard time encouraging security to engage with it. It's not a fun chase for security officers, who have to fight through access requirements to even *attempt* chase - Most players seem like they're only continuing out of raw obligation to stop the arcfiend ruining everyone else's rounds, rather than because they're having fun.
What's even more frustrating as these arcfiends don't actually kill anyone. When we do catch them, I end up in a position where letting them go will make several players' rounds much worse, but it's super excessive to actually execute them for destroying like 4-5 APCs. Perhaps admins will back the decision if I did make it, but I'd totally sympathise with a player thinking it was excessive.
I'd like to hear some other short takes from other players to see if it's not just me and the teams I've played with lately.
RE: Adjust arcfiend wirehopping ability & chases - Kotlol - 04-09-2023
Ugh I remember one round as a detective where you were HoS. I was trying to interact with the arcfiend and he kept feeding and runnig over and over. (This was a RP server moment)
We kept trying to stun him, but he kept wiring out and we didn't wanna do wire cutting as it would be a pain to clean.
So I requested lethals and you approved it.
So then whenever I could get a shot in, I did.. infact I fully laoded a magazine into him and the energy drain ended within a minute.
But yea... the wire traveling arcfiend needs to be more limited or make the wire crawl slower or make it cost a certain amount of stamina (like 100% stamina) to do it.. so when security gets even 1 stun in.. they gotta regain stamina to do the wire trick.
ANY OF THESE WILL FIX THE PROBLEM!
Personally I think requiring High Stamina to do it is probably the best for an arcfiend.
RE: Adjust arcfiend wirehopping ability & chases - glowbold - 04-09-2023
I think part of the issue is how binary arcfiend is with regard to cuffs. If you're cuffed, you're pretty much done, so if you don't want to be cuffed... you fight or flee. If you survive/get away, sec is going to be tase-on-sight... so you then flee before sec can fire at you and hide where they can't get you.
Lings can slip free of cuffs, vamps can resist stuns and have thralls, traitors have a lot more range of engagement options, but arcfiends are limited enough where there's an overwhelmingly safe option that is not fun to play against.
Also, cut wires & engage engineering for arcfiends imo. Rewriting straight lines into squigglies doesn't hurt power, but does make the arcfiend's wire dance a hinderance! Get creative :^)
RE: Adjust arcfiend wirehopping ability & chases - Meowgical - 04-09-2023
I'd have to agree. Sometimes we get some fun arc rounds, but it usually ends up being:
>Arc sapping the APCs
>Chase
>uhoh.jpeg
>Wirehop
>I evade arrest for the 10th time this round
Which I guess is fun for the arc but after a while it's annoying as sec. Wire cutting works, but 9 times out of ten no one has a wirecutter and crowbar on hand and by the time you do get it the thing is way across the map. Every arc round I have is like this.
I agree with the whole what do we do now issue of punishing them because I can't just go "Execute lul" for busted APCs it's like you said, feels super excessive but the alternate is... borging I guess? Last round we tried that though they still slipped out for another 15 minute goosechase. Wouldn't mind an adjustment on wirehopping be it costing stamina or more charge to do but maaan are they a hassle sometimes.
RE: Adjust arcfiend wirehopping ability & chases - babayetu83 - 04-09-2023
the other thing that makes chases hard is that it's very easy to stockpile and cap energy between chases so it ultimately feels pointless. some people might say it's lame or cheesy but personally though this is where i would get the ai and silicons involved. ai and borg players are typically very seasoned and skilled players which when you combine that with a seething bloodlust waiting to bubble up to the surface, you will often get good results.
RE: Adjust arcfiend wirehopping ability & chases - Silent Majority - 04-10-2023
I would like...
Something. Like recently i had an arcfiend who was in like 3-4 seconds cutting every wire on a door. So pursuit required silicons, who even then would have been slow(we had no silicons they had zipped in and rogued them)
After 60 minutes of this they broke security down to the point of ignoring them. So trash talking on the stupid sec headsets in the bridge began (i hate those headsets so much its become discouraging to every round know come are compromised again but thats another issue).
I saw a stream of a round on 4 where an arcfiend in full syndie commando armor with sunglasses and a gasmask.followed a borg around killing peolle and if they ttied to approach they'd just arcflash then go in the wire.
I'm not sure how to address it. Maybe make it.continue to drain power at a much faster rate if still in the wire? Its the whole.wraith issue of fighting an invisible invincible opponent being discouraging. Maybe allow engineering to create very power inefficient and very obvious traps
RE: Adjust arcfiend wirehopping ability & chases - Lord_earthfire - 04-10-2023
I think there is a somewhat easy solution to this: add a 30 second cooldown to the wirehopping ability AFTER you exited the wire.
That way, the arcfiend got one chance to jump away and arcfiend chases over multiple wires are generally discouraged. And if they are seen when coming out they got no second chance to flee for a long time.
Personally, i use the wire hopping for good reengaging, since the station design does not contribute to satisfying encounters and instead encourages chases. Too small and narrow in general.
RE: Adjust arcfiend wirehopping ability & chases - babayetu83 - 04-10-2023
that seems a bit too heavy handed. personally what i'd do is apply a debuff after exiting a wire incurs a penalty where it drains even more electricity than it does each time you get off a wire. the debuff should last maybe a minute, adding 15 seconds each time you hop onto a wire with it still active. lastly, the timer should freeze while you're on a wire. if this sounds complicated, the idea is to progressively add pressure to arcfiend players while giving progressively more and more give to security/etc. you still can go on big long chases, but, you have to be smart about your resource usage and preservation
RE: Adjust arcfiend wirehopping ability & chases - nefarious6th - 04-10-2023
i've always been meh on arcfiend as a gamemode because of the high-evasiveness and the really low...momentum for confrontation? arcfiends tend to sort of slurp up energy and then decide on the shuttle to chain stun people as their big villainous act.
tbh i dont see anything wrong with wirehopping specifically. from an arcfiend POV, power drain from per second use of wirehopping felt like enough to manage especially since i found movement on wires to be pretty rough and nonfluid. from a sec standpoint, i find chases pretty fun. i think having to play ahead of the curve with cutting wires is fun. as an engineer, i've never minded mending, it's something to do and re-wiring takes no time at all with instant cable laying.
what the chase does do is something that baba and glowbold mention: it makes other departments relevant. enlist their help more often.
it's not exciting confrontational ling-like gameplay as sec, but is it meant to always be that? even though it's not my favorite, i think there's a value in antag feels not being "same-y"
RE: Adjust arcfiend wirehopping ability & chases - Kotlol - 04-11-2023
(04-10-2023, 09:08 PM)nefarious6th Wrote: i've always been meh on arcfiend as a gamemode because of the high-evasiveness and the really low...momentum for confrontation? arcfiends tend to sort of slurp up energy and then decide on the shuttle to chain stun people as their big villainous act.
tbh i dont see anything wrong with wirehopping specifically. from an arcfiend POV, power drain from per second use of wirehopping felt like enough to manage especially since i found movement on wires to be pretty rough and nonfluid. from a sec standpoint, i find chases pretty fun. i think having to play ahead of the curve with cutting wires is fun. as an engineer, i've never minded mending, it's something to do and re-wiring takes no time at all with instant cable laying.
what the chase does do is something that baba and glowbold mention: it makes other departments relevant. enlist their help more often.
it's not exciting confrontational ling-like gameplay as sec, but is it meant to always be that? even though it's not my favorite, i think there's a value in antag feels not being "same-y"
I got several problems with the arcfiend... Wire hopping is one of em, due to how lame it is to track someone through wires and snipping wires.
Also as stated.. he just drains an APC and moves on. Most Arcfiends won't destroy APCs since they can return there to recharge and thus a loop exists.
Cutting wires might be a way to go... but if an arcfiend drains the battery and then you cut the wire, now a department has no power.
Also wire chases aren't as involved as other antagonist chases.... Other antags might attack back, use tricks and traps. Arcfiend just wirezooms away.
So it's less involved too and even if you are good at it.. you will be snipping wires to end the chase.
Now my other problems with the arcfiend is more on the arcfiends POV. Just like Vampires, Arcfiends doing stuff is LOUD and you need to wear gloves since your victim will "never be able to be removed" Unlike vampires who can drain a players blood and kill them then toss em out of the airlock or make em a ghoul.
An arcfiend need to leave the APC behind always unless they wanna blow it up to get rid of any evidence. And as we know... the arcfiend has a bad way of fighting security.
Even their strongest kill technique costs a lot of energy and is slow and LOUUUUUUD and if it gets interrupted... it's wasted energy.
And while it has one of the best abillities to be a killer aka... "Radio jamming field" and can cause fun chaos with the magnet abillity.
I still think if the arcfiend should have two sets of drains as well.
"Loud and fast" , "Slow and quiet"
Anyway.. playing arcfiend isn't as fun since your best option is to run via wire hopping and that costs a lot of energy so you rather not use your killing/fighting abillities as it drains your running. And thus this loop of wire hopping and draining goes on forever till sec decides to end it aggresively.
As we all say... even with wire snipping. The chase is long and non lethal... and when you catch the non killing arcfiend whos just draining. You gotta decide to execute em ... while you don't want to cause they don't kill or let them go so you might have to do the chase AGAIN several times before they get executed.
And trust me.. on classic... security has more things to do then to chase an arcfiend for 15 mins and snipping wires. Cause that time allows a lot of other antags to get a huge footing. Remember that arcfiend ain't the sole antagonist in the round... so suddenly you are stuck doing this.
RE: Adjust arcfiend wirehopping ability & chases - Lord_earthfire - 04-11-2023
To be honest, if the archfiend is just eating apc's and leave them alone... why do you even need to hunt them? A running/regaining arcfiend is just not one that is actively antagging, and that would be enough for me. At least from the engineer-perspective, an arcfiend just doesnt make much problems, the apcs recharge quick and maybe i have to fix one or two when they got greedy. Even for a normal crewmember an apc snacking arcfiend is just... not a problem?
Not engaging makes them often just eat sone stuff, realize they got no idea what to do and begin rampaging on the shuttle. Same result, just less wasted energy.
Now, for playing arcfiend, it's, besides traitor, my favorite antag type to play. And the only non-human antag i have checked. Arcfiend has a very flashy and loud kit and i don't think this a problem. In the other hand, it is a very utility focussed kit.
You have radio disabling and enhanced access via wire hopping. You can use these for all kind of antagging. And if it goes sideays, you can start using the big and flashy guns. This antag is great for gimmicks: don't need to kill for powers, so got plenty of time for silly shenanigans.
I can see arcfiend being problematic for people who want to rely on their amtag gear ir abilities. For an arcfiend, relying on your abilities only is what i would call a mistake.
RE: Adjust arcfiend wirehopping ability & chases - Kotlol - 04-11-2023
(04-11-2023, 04:36 AM)Lord_earthfire Wrote: To be honest, if the archfiend is just eating apc's and leave them alone... why do you even need to hunt them? A running/regaining arcfiend is just not one that is actively antagging, and that would be enough for me. At least from the engineer-perspective, an arcfiend just doesnt make much problems, the apcs recharge quick and maybe i have to fix one or two when they got greedy. Even for a normal crewmember an apc snacking arcfiend is just... not a problem?
Not engaging makes them often just eat sone stuff, realize they got no idea what to do and begin rampaging on the shuttle. Same result, just less wasted energy.
Now, for playing arcfiend, it's, besides traitor, my favorite antag type to play. And the only non-human antag i have checked. Arcfiend has a very flashy and loud kit and i don't think this a problem. In the other hand, it is a very utility focussed kit.
You have radio disabling and enhanced access via wire hopping. You can use these for all kind of antagging. And if it goes sideays, you can start using the big and flashy guns. This antag is great for gimmicks: don't need to kill for powers, so got plenty of time for silly shenanigans.
I can see arcfiend being problematic for people who want to rely on their amtag gear ir abilities. For an arcfiend, relying on your abilities only is what i would call a mistake.
Holy crap the typo demon took a hold of this one.
That said... it's a fair assesment that it is the best NON MURDERING ANTAG, but I fully agree. You can do some fun silly stuff as one.
My PROBLEM is the fact as you mention it... "Best to ignore em"
But they are antagging, but ti's wasted energy for both...
It's like ignoring an antag breaking into engineering for tools.. cause why waste energy? he's gonna do it again and it doesnt do much harm.
If the best course of action of an antagonist doing antagonist things is "IGNORE IT" then that's a flawed design. Remember that draining power is an antagonistic thing to do.. just cause they don't kill doesn't mean they don't crime.
Antagonists do not have to kill to be antagonists, they can also cause a muck or steal money or turn the whole station into chaos or even take control of the station like a dictator without spilling a drop of blood, but they still do crimes to get their ways.
And before you say: "Well normal players do this too if they aren't antagonists." I'd go yes.. and they should be thrown into the brig as well or Ahelped.
I have the same problem with "Weed" in botany. Since technically in game it's a CONTRABAND, but it's ignored by security cause it is done a lot and is funny. But technically... the captain decides if it's legal or not.
Eitherway... if the arcfiend is best ignored.. why should it be an antagonist then? why should it sneak around and drain energy?
That is the problem right now.. if it's all just a waste of time of both to engage in Antag vs Security.. then that's a flaw.
RE: Adjust arcfiend wirehopping ability & chases - TDHooligan - 04-11-2023
(04-10-2023, 09:08 PM)nefarious6th Wrote: 1 - what the chase does do is something that baba and glowbold mention: it makes other departments relevant. enlist their help more often.
2 - it's not exciting confrontational ling-like gameplay as sec, but is it meant to always be that? even though it's not my favorite, i think there's a value in antag feels not being "same-y"
1: if this worked we'd see it actually being done, but arcfiends will zap through a department in 3 seconds, while hiring someone to help from said department for 10 seconds takes longer than that (and wastes yet another crewmembers' time).
what actually ends up happening is the captain, HoP and HoS become the only people actually able to do anything.
2: this whole thread is about how sec teams i manage are very clearly frustrated and bored by arcfiends. i'd hazard only 40% of the regulars I play with are even willing to engage arcfiends these days.
this thread is not 'remove non-confrontational gameplay', it is 'this current implementation of non-confrontational gameplay is making people bored and frustrated' and as far as i can see, nobody disagrees.
RE: Adjust arcfiend wirehopping ability & chases - Lord_earthfire - 04-11-2023
(04-11-2023, 04:46 AM)Kotlol Wrote: Holy crap the typo demon took a hold of this one.
That said... it's a fair assesment that it is the best NON MURDERING ANTAG, but I fully agree. You can do some fun silly stuff as one.
My PROBLEM is the fact as you mention it... "Best to ignore em"
But they are antagging, but ti's wasted energy for both...
It's like ignoring an antag breaking into engineering for tools.. cause why waste energy? he's gonna do it again and it doesnt do much harm.
If the best course of action of an antagonist doing antagonist things is "IGNORE IT" then that's a flawed design. Remember that draining power is an antagonistic thing to do.. just cause they don't kill doesn't mean they don't crime.
Antagonists do not have to kill to be antagonists, they can also cause a muck or steal money or turn the whole station into chaos or even take control of the station like a dictator without spilling a drop of blood, but they still do crimes to get their ways.
And before you say: "Well normal players do this too if they aren't antagonists." I'd go yes.. and they should be thrown into the brig as well or Ahelped.
I have the same problem with "Weed" in botany. Since technically in game it's a CONTRABAND, but it's ignored by security cause it is done a lot and is funny. But technically... the captain decides if it's legal or not.
Eitherway... if the arcfiend is best ignored.. why should it be an antagonist then? why should it sneak around and drain energy?
That is the problem right now.. if it's all just a waste of time of both to engage in Antag vs Security.. then that's a flaw.
Yeah, sorry, this is a serious problem when i write longer post on mobile. Too fat fingers for my phone :<
While yes, this is petty crime, greytiding or stealing (stealing power included) is not something you waste 15 minutes on.
We are talking about an arcfiend accumulating energy but doing absolutely nothing with it. It's not really flawed, but the player is not doing their role as antag.
Driving a round.
The spief that steals ramdom stuff but does not do anything with it is the exact thing. The difference is the latter just being more stealthy and not that obvious. This is why security does not feel like going after inactive spiefs. Or even recognize there is one.
It's not really flawed by design. It is the old problem of the inactive antag.
I mean, that's a design problem, but one of the whole concept of antags in general.
RE: Adjust arcfiend wirehopping ability & chases - Silent Majority - 04-11-2023
(04-10-2023, 09:08 PM)nefarious6th Wrote: i've always been meh on arcfiend as a gamemode because of the high-evasiveness and the really low...momentum for confrontation? arcfiends tend to sort of slurp up energy and then decide on the shuttle to chain stun people as their big villainous act.
tbh i dont see anything wrong with wirehopping specifically. from an arcfiend POV, power drain from per second use of wirehopping felt like enough to manage especially since i found movement on wires to be pretty rough and nonfluid. from a sec standpoint, i find chases pretty fun. i think having to play ahead of the curve with cutting wires is fun. as an engineer, i've never minded mending, it's something to do and re-wiring takes no time at all with instant cable laying.
what the chase does do is something that baba and glowbold mention: it makes other departments relevant. enlist their help more often.
it's not exciting confrontational ling-like gameplay as sec, but is it meant to always be that? even though it's not my favorite, i think there's a value in antag feels not being "same-y"
An issue here is if an arcfiend just sits in the wire.it would take 10 minutes nearly for their power to run out. Arcs often just sit there so sec can't follow their trajectory unless sec start pulling up floor tiles. So it turns into this...game of just sitting there waiting. Or sec tearing the floor off. Which then means sec needs to carry insuls and hacking tools, basically, which we are strongly encouraged to not do.
I fully agree that i don't necessarily want samey antags but i don't want what amounts to non engaging.antags either. And especially with the growing trend of "break every door" gameplay its encouraging a gameplay loop of "kill them if you have a chance" or as i've seen sometimes on classic "who cares they're boring "