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+--- Thread: Complaint Admin: HauntedAngel - Goon1 - 11/8/2022 at ~ 12 pm EST (/showthread.php?tid=20109)
Admin: HauntedAngel - Goon1 - 11/8/2022 at ~ 12 pm EST - Raffyk - 11-08-2022
Admin: HauntedAngel
Server: Goon1
Date + time: Somewhere between 11:00 pm EST and 1pm EST on 11/08/2022
Synopsis: I was banned for 24 hours by HauntedAngel because in-game while a traitor I told a security officer to kill themself in-game/in-character after arguing with them about arresting me because they had evidence I was an antagonist that I argued was insufficient to prove I was.
I have to iterate that I fully meant to in-game kill their character/telling their in-game character and not the actual person to kill themself, and that I was not telling them to commit suicide in real life. I fully understand that just saying "kill yourself" in character chat doesn't have the needed context to be interpreted as that, and thus can be triggering or make someone very uncomfortable (thinking that I am telling them to do that in real life),etc. It's not the right or cool thing to say. I was being shitty and toxic, and I should not have. I won't say it like that going forward or behave in that manner. I just thought as an antagonist I could be a bitter more annoying and shitty since it was my goal to cause chaos and disrupt the station. Looking back at the moment, I understand that this was a toxic thing to say and not a generally good idea to do in the future. I could have handled this situation differently, and there were better ways to get across my point and intent at that moment than just blanket saying "kill yourself". I get it, that's not what we want our community to be.
Extra information: Granted all of that, I think a blanket 24-hour ban is excessive. I know the rules are meant to be a guideline, and admins will always have the final say, but I have read them and I do try my best to adhere to them at all times. The only issue I have had with admins in the past were minor griefing or accidentally using the word "bitch", of which after being warned, I acknowledged and followed said rules, and did not have any issues. If at any point an admin has told me to knock something off, I always have. I don't see anywhere in the rules that it says telling someone to kill themself in-game (as antagonist especially) as being a violation of anything, I don't even really see anything about being toxic.
So one, I would like to take the time to say I think the rules should be expanded or written out in a manner that hits on this, so when someone reads them, this point stands out a bit more clearly. It would be really helpful to know at the get-go what counts as non-griefing but toxic behavior and language and to avoid doing that. If everything else that will get you banned is listed like that, I don't understand why something like this isn't. I feel sort of "gotcha'd" because of this. I think clarity would be helpful here. I'm not trying to be a rules-lawyer here and say because this wasn't explicitly listed out, I should be free to go/do whatever I want in this vein. I'm just saying because of how things are communicated, in this specific moment I didn't know what the expectation was, even when trying to adhere to and understand the rules. It would be better to have better communication or outlines in this front, because of that.
Two, I think a 24-hour ban is excessive. I've never been banned before, and any time I've had any issues, I've always been forthcoming, honest, and accepting to any conversation or bwoinks I've had with staff. I've never lied or withheld anything, and when I've been told to knock something off, I always do. I think a warning or smaller timeframe would have gotten the message across to me just as much. I get where the admin is coming from, and I respect what is being conveyed to me here, but with a bit of lack of clarity in the rules, plus the fact that I wasn't even warned or talked to, I think it's fair to say 24 hours is excessive use of admin in this instance.
No hate or ill-intent intended by this towards anyone, these are just my thoughts and I think in the future any situation similar to this from a player should be handled differently. Thanks!
RE: Admin: HauntedAngel - Goon1 - 11/8/2022 at ~ 12 pm EST - Hauntmachine - 11-08-2022
1. Even if you meant it only IC, I would have still banned you, as telling people to kill themselves is shitty either way. It doesn't matter if you didn't "really" mean it. You still said it. You should not need a specific clarification in the rules stating "telling players to kill themselves is not allowed", as it's common sense that this is an awful thing to say to people.
2. We use day bans to serve as stern warnings - such as repeat rule breaks, or strong offenses. Your particular case is the latter, as telling someone to kill themselves is an incredibly serious offense.
RE: Admin: HauntedAngel - Goon1 - 11/8/2022 at ~ 12 pm EST - Raffyk - 11-08-2022
(11-08-2022, 11:15 AM)Hauntmachine Wrote: 1. Even if you meant it only IC, I would have still banned you, as telling people to kill themselves is shitty either way. It doesn't matter if you didn't "really" mean it. You still said it. You should not need a specific clarification in the rules stating "telling players to kill themselves is not allowed", as it's common sense that this is an awful thing to say to people.
2. We use day bans to serve as stern warnings - such as repeat rule breaks, or strong offenses. Your particular case is the latter, as telling someone to kill themselves is an incredibly serious offense.
Okie dokie! Understood.
Respectfully, I don't think it's a good thing to leave something that requires a stern warning to be left up to common sense. That's not very helpful to the players, in my opinion. None of the other things on the server that requires stern punishment seem to be left to common sense(At least from my understanding, I might be wrong!). Why should this? Why then not leave some of the other situations that require stern warnings to be left up to common sense? Why should I not need a specific clarification? Other things get specific clarifications. I get it was really shitty to say, and I respect that not being cool. But I think leaving things up to common sense is a great way to allow ambiguity and abuse of rules and edge cases. It comes off as arbitrary to me. I know at the end of the day the rules are arbitrary and subjective, meant to hit a moving target of a fun welcoming environment for everyone. It wasn't common sense to me at the time. Maybe that's a comment on that I'm an outlier, shitty, toxic person more than it is on the rules. I'd be willing to concede that. But I'm just trying to levy feedback in the hope of improving expectations and the environment for the players of goon. I hope you respect my perspective in that sense.
I didn't know it was an incredibly strong offense, and my honest good-faith critique I can give is that I deserve the warning/punishment, but I just didn't know the expectation was there in that regard, I think with it outlined I would have. I think you should have your more incredibly serious offenses pointed out, much like how well-explained griefing or rule 4 is. In my shitty reasoning at the time, my understanding was as an antagonist as long as I'm not breaking the actual rules of the server, something like telling the other character (and not the person) to kill themself is as in-pocket as literally blowing up the entire station which I could equally do as antag. I get that's not true, and it's too ambiguous and just shitty to say to be that way. I hope you can see how with that reasoning at the time, it was unclear and not common sense to me. I can kidnap someone, or murder them, or enslave them against their will, but I can't tell them to die? That's where my mistaken mind was at the time. In that situation, it isn't so common sense to me, and I think with something being outlined, I might have known and acted differently. I know I'm coming across as a shitty edgy person right now, so I hope you understand I respect your opinion that it should be common sense. I just hope you can see where I'm coming from with "I don't think this is communicated to me as a player as well as I think it could be".
Thanks. Hope to be back on the server tomorrow <3
(11-08-2022, 11:39 AM)Raffyk Wrote:Also just going to preface that I know not knowing the rules is not an excuse for breaking them. I am saying I think this could be communicated better outside just a ban, and that it to me not being communicated clearly is not a justification to have done it. Thanks!(11-08-2022, 11:15 AM)Hauntmachine Wrote: 1. Even if you meant it only IC, I would have still banned you, as telling people to kill themselves is shitty either way. It doesn't matter if you didn't "really" mean it. You still said it. You should not need a specific clarification in the rules stating "telling players to kill themselves is not allowed", as it's common sense that this is an awful thing to say to people.
2. We use day bans to serve as stern warnings - such as repeat rule breaks, or strong offenses. Your particular case is the latter, as telling someone to kill themselves is an incredibly serious offense.
Okie dokie! Understood.
Respectfully, I don't think it's a good thing to leave something that requires a stern warning to be left up to common sense. That's not very helpful to the players, in my opinion. None of the other things on the server that requires stern punishment seem to be left to common sense(At least from my understanding, I might be wrong!). Why should this? Why then not leave some of the other situations that require stern warnings to be left up to common sense? Why should I not need a specific clarification? Other things get specific clarifications. I get it was really shitty to say, and I respect that not being cool. But I think leaving things up to common sense is a great way to allow ambiguity and abuse of rules and edge cases. It comes off as arbitrary to me. I know at the end of the day the rules are arbitrary and subjective, meant to hit a moving target of a fun welcoming environment for everyone. It wasn't common sense to me at the time. Maybe that's a comment on that I'm an outlier, shitty, toxic person more than it is on the rules. I'd be willing to concede that. But I'm just trying to levy feedback in the hope of improving expectations and the environment for the players of goon. I hope you respect my perspective in that sense.
I didn't know it was an incredibly strong offense, and my honest good-faith critique I can give is that I deserve the warning/punishment, but I just didn't know the expectation was there in that regard, I think with it outlined I would have. I think you should have your more incredibly serious offenses pointed out, much like how well-explained griefing or rule 4 is. In my shitty reasoning at the time, my understanding was as an antagonist as long as I'm not breaking the actual rules of the server, something like telling the other character (and not the person) to kill themself is as in-pocket as literally blowing up the entire station which I could equally do as antag. I get that's not true, and it's too ambiguous and just shitty to say to be that way. I hope you can see how with that reasoning at the time, it was unclear and not common sense to me. I can kidnap someone, or murder them, or enslave them against their will, but I can't tell them to die? That's where my mistaken mind was at the time. In that situation, it isn't so common sense to me, and I think with something being outlined, I might have known and acted differently. I know I'm coming across as a shitty edgy person right now, so I hope you understand I respect your opinion that it should be common sense. I just hope you can see where I'm coming from with "I don't think this is communicated to me as a player as well as I think it could be".
Thanks. Hope to be back on the server tomorrow <3