Goonstation Forums
[CLOSED PR] Makes atmos constructable and stuff - Printable Version

+- Goonstation Forums (https://forum.ss13.co)
+-- Forum: Discussion (https://forum.ss13.co/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Ideas & Suggestions (https://forum.ss13.co/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Thread: [CLOSED PR] Makes atmos constructable and stuff (/showthread.php?tid=19970)

[CLOSED PR] Makes atmos constructable and stuff - github_bot - 10-17-2022

PULL REQUEST DETAILS


[ATMOSPHERICS][FEATURE][INPUT WANTED]
About the PR
Atmos is now constructible using a welder on harm intent and a atmos construct. Can't wait to see engine setups.

def not ready since i am slow
like dont expect this to be fast

Why's this needed?
New atmos content is good.

Screenshots
[Image: 196344804-7663497e-350c-48da-9b4b-c5849c47a48c.png]
[Image: 196344829-8fcd3484-9ee9-48fa-a0fd-c15077b8ec73.png]
[Image: 196344857-2826031f-c6e4-4751-936c-f50408561aa1.png]
[Image: 198446081-8ee0fa06-4121-40f9-9862-8008bc17e742.png]
[Image: 196344937-e16cad3a-b4f1-498a-a08e-9fbc616ae014.png]

Code:
changelog
(u)Laboredih123
(*)Atmos is constructible using a welder on intent.


PULL REQUEST DETAILS

RE: [PR] Makes atmos constructable and stuff - Lord_earthfire - 10-17-2022

Certainly appreciate an extension of Atmos. I'm kinda looking forward what hell (and amounts of W) engineers can unleash with buildable pipes.

RE: [PR] Makes atmos constructable and stuff - Glamurio - 10-18-2022

This is good, great in fact. This is exactly what I want to see for Engineers, more tools and creative ways to expand the engine. I'd go so far as to say that Engineers should be able to build a whole second engine if they put in the time and resources for it, though maybe others would disagree.

RE: [PR] Makes atmos constructable and stuff - babayetu83 - 10-18-2022

bring back atmos tech too

RE: [PR] Makes atmos constructable and stuff - BatElite - 10-18-2022

So how does the building/dismantling work, mechanically? The PR description is very light.

RE: [PR] Makes atmos constructable and stuff - Bartimeus - 10-18-2022

This could use a bit more info on how this all works, description and changelog are not very clear. However this is very much an interesting change that might revolutionize how engineering is played altogether, which i love!

RE: [PR] Makes atmos constructable and stuff - Cringe - 10-18-2022

Made the pr when sleepy, anyway basically you have a pipe construct. Deconstructing requires a welder on harm intent with at least 2 fuel. When deconstructed, the pipes around seal, making it so they don't leak. Constructing requires a atmos construct and also a welder with fuel. Current problems are insufficient sprites to show where the opening is, and some irregularities.

RE: [PR] Makes atmos constructable and stuff - Cherman0 - 10-19-2022

Maybe a hot take, but I'm very much against constructable atmos. It would kill the last bit of complexity that engineering has left. For example, it would change the solution to the problem of "pressure is too high" from managing mol count in the pipes more effectively to "build a billion pressure tanks."

Atmos works on the ideal gas law: Pressure * Volume = Mol Count * Temperature * Ideal Gas Constant. As it currently stands, volume is mostly constant and mol count is somewhat static too after the initial setup (not considering pipeburns for a moment). This makes temperature your independent variable and pressure your dependent variable, with your goal being to maximize temperature within a fixed pressure limit.

This PR would make volume no longer constant, presenting two solutions to the problem: Either control your gas expansion or volume to keep pressure in check. Controlling expansion involves managing the amount of gas in the pipes, temperature, blower settings, etc.. Point is, it has some depth. Controlling volume involves just making more pipes. Its a very simple solution to an originally complex problem.

And it would also bring back pipeburns being the "optimal meta" option, which is not something that I particularly want to see, and given the nerfs I believe the devs are inclined to agree. Unless you've changed how pipes work under the hood, it would be trivial to just replace the pipes with T-junctions or radiators or passive gates or whatever that can't break and then just ignore pressure entirely. Even if you have changed that and all pipes can break, people would still just rebuild the engine every round in order to give it as few pipes as possible so that the work of a one-man pipeburn becomes reasonable again. Pipeburns should ideally be something that takes a coordinated engineering team to pull off effectively, and a big part of how that balance works is that the engine pipe network too large on most maps for one person to find it worth the effort to patch all the pipes by themself.

RE: [PR] Makes atmos constructable and stuff - Lord_earthfire - 10-19-2022

(10-19-2022, 07:57 AM)Cherman0 Wrote: Maybe a hot take, but I'm very much against constructable atmos. It would kill the last bit of complexity that engineering has left. For example, it would change the solution to the problem of "pressure is too high" from managing mol count in the pipes more effectively to "build a billion pressure tanks."

Atmos works on the ideal gas law: Pressure * Volume = Mol Count * Temperature * Ideal Gas Constant. As it currently stands, volume is mostly constant and mol count is somewhat static too after the initial setup (not considering pipeburns for a moment). This makes temperature your independent variable and pressure your dependent variable, with your goal being to maximize temperature within a fixed pressure limit.

This PR would make volume no longer constant, presenting two solutions to the problem: Either control your gas expansion or volume to keep pressure in check. Controlling expansion involves managing the amount of gas in the pipes, temperature, blower settings, etc.. Point is, it has some depth. Controlling volume involves just making more pipes. Its a very simple solution to an originally complex problem.

And it would also bring back pipeburns being the "optimal meta" option, which is not something that I particularly want to see, and given the nerfs I believe the devs are inclined to agree. Unless you've changed how pipes work under the hood, it would be trivial to just replace the pipes with T-junctions or radiators or passive gates or whatever that can't break and then just ignore pressure entirely. Even if you have changed that and all pipes can break, people would still just rebuild the engine every round in order to give it as few pipes as possible so that the work of a one-man pipeburn becomes reasonable again. Pipeburns should ideally be something that takes a coordinated engineering team to pull off effectively, and a big part of how that balance works is that the engine pipe network too large on most maps for one person to find it worth the effort to patch all the pipes by themself.

I mean if you make the hassle to do so much construction work, you have more or less earned it. You are talking about more or less remodelling the piping of the TEG for a one-man pipeburn. With buildable pipes you have the choice between a more upkeep intensive setup by controling pressure or controling Volume by doing more initial work. If it really turn out to be the more efficient way, we should think about how to approach the TEG.

Besides, heat capacity scales within a certain volume scales with the amount of moles in it. It would make sense to make the TEG have their energy output scale with the molar flow and cool down the gas in the process (i hope it isn't a perpetuum mobile). This way reducing the concentration of gasses in the pipes by increasing the volume (but keeping pressure constant) does have a negative impact on the energy generation and shouldn't become superior to balancing both pressure and molar flow.

This would make burns even more interesting, because you need to optimize two variables now. two of the 3 following: pressure, moles and volume.

But to be honest, for this i would wait how much the meta changes with the change. That we we can see better how problematic it is and how to adjust the variables properly.