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+--- Thread: [CLOSED PR] Changes to Traitor Generic Items (/showthread.php?tid=19657)
[CLOSED PR] Changes to Traitor Generic Items - github_bot - 09-05-2022
PULL REQUEST DETAILS
About the PR
The PR swaps around several items from the syndicate buylist for traitors. I specifically targeted items that I felt either didn't really make proper sense to be job locked, and are rarely seen and entertaining. Most should make sense, although there may be a few that I added because I think they would bring a lot of gameplay potential, as well. I went over the list with several people to curate it to items that people agree on, and items that weren't agreed on were not added.
I also fiddled with the surplus items a bit and added weaker variants of surplus items that were exclusive, or just swapped things from exclusive. The only swapped gear from surplus were banana grenades, and I job-locked them to clown, because I think it's super thematic. I made single item versions of bear traps and breaching charges and upped their cost to reflect the gamemode balance.
EDIT: Ikea made a really good point about not listing out the actual items added to the generic list in the description, so the items added are as followed.
**GENERIC**
Decided to revert several after getting input. These are the current ones. It's a smaller list but I'm still confident that this would give a lot more gameplay variety, so I'm happy with it.
Single Bear Trap (2TC) Modified from original surplus option
Standard Breaching Charge (3TC) Modified from surplus option
Chameleon Bombs (4TC)
Moustache Grenade (3TC) -
Pickpocket Gun (3TC)
**JOB LOCKED**
Banana Grenade was removed from surplus only and given to Clown as a job specific item.
Telegun was given to scientist, but I've realized it just has too many barriers for a scientist versus a head of staff so it's reverted.
Syndicate Cargo transporter access was also given to the Chief Engineer.
I was interested in a few other items such as poison bottles, but decided against it since it seemed controversial since sleepy pen with poison bottles objectively outperforms syringe gun.
Why's this needed?
Goal of the PR is to make the traitor gamemode a little more varied, and to spice it up by giving more options to players. A lot of players have talked about wanting more generic items because there's a large amount of job locked items, and not all of them are very thematic to their jobs. The only thing that was added that is pure rampage focused was Stimulants, but as those got their TC upped to six and underwent some changes, I think they should be made generic as they no longer are the show stopper combo that wins the game for a scientist.
Traitor is the best game-mode because of the variety, but I think a lot of people have gripes about the amount of limited items that traitors have access to despite many cool items existing, and this just aims at making it more varied and having more gameplay opportunities, especially for gimmicks. I think a lot of people feel like they HAVE to take surplus to get a chance at any fun gimmick items if they aren't a popular job. The issue with that is there are a lot of items excluded from surplus that you have to code dive to find out, because most people assume that surplus has access to every item. I knew it didn't have boomboots and the syndicate hat, I didn't know it didn't have csabers, powersinks, shotguns, maneaters, butcher knife, hotdog cart, red saw, trash compactor, wasp crossbow, powergloves, conversion chamber, etc etc without codediving, and you can roll duplicates of crappy items on top of that. While I kind of want to work on that in a different PR, I think giving more items to the generic list will also help significantly with gameplay variety and make people more interested in trying new routes.
Don't think I missed a label, please don't kill me Zewaka, I looked at every label 😱
Changelog
```changelog
(u)MomoBerry
(*)Shuffled around several items to the Generic traitor List, and changed some job restricted traitor gear access.
PULL REQUEST DETAILS
RE: [PR] Changes to Traitor Generic Items - MomoBerry - 09-05-2022
Decided to add Input Wanted label to make a discussion thread, since I think it's important. I'm open to changes to pricing and if people aren't for stimulants, I'm also fine with removing that. Would need a lot of convincing to flat out remove a lot of the other items, outside of maybe donk pockets, since I honestly do not see the thematics of where they are outweighing their benefit to gameplay, and restricting them to specific jobs isn't a benefit to gameplay in my eyes.
If you have items you're interested in having generalized or moved around, suggest em! I had a few that I wanted to move around a bit but I wanted to address them in a separate PR, as I don't think they're as notably non thematic.
RE: [PR] Changes to Traitor Generic Items - DioChasek - 09-05-2022
I only disagree with two the vuvuzuela gun and the pickpocket gun. The former because you could actually see that thing becoming a halfway meta weapon if everyone could get their hands on it for 3 credits, as it is only 2 jobs (not including spy their) can get a hold of it so the odds of it showing up are slim in a given round.
The pickpocket gun doesnt have as good of a reason, it s more of a "why are we giving this to everybody?" vibe.
RE: [PR] Changes to Traitor Generic Items - Love - 09-05-2022
More traitor toys to play with is always a good thing.
Though I suppose at some point we'll have to start breaking them into themed sections for readability.
The guardbuddy replicator might be a bit hard for a non-RD to use.
And I worry the breaching charge will be a bit much. Every traitor round someone will low-effort their way into the armory.
Stims are probably priced fine to be incompatible with a lot of rampage items.
The donk provides a lot of the same functionality for much cheaper. And also heals you. Though the duration is quite a bit shorter. So probably fine.
Everything else looks good. Some might not see much use, but that's already true of a lot of items. And it doesn't hurt to enable gimmicks.
I expect there'll be an argument about the Vuvuzela, since only sec seems to generally be allowed the one-or-two-clicks-and-I-win things. But I know I'd like a nonlethal thing for traitors to have, for RP. Where there are more kidnappings and such. And the vuvuzela isn't exactly a stealth item, either. I hope it stays in, personally!
I really do hope people use bear traps and the pickpocket gun more, too!
It does solidify traitor as best antag, even more. But we should always be striving to make antags (well, and non-antags) more awesome and fun.
But heck, I'd not be for more choices and customization with other antags to get similar fun. Even if it means 'copying' from other codebases that have such.
RE: [PR] Changes to Traitor Generic Items - MomoBerry - 09-05-2022
(09-05-2022, 10:50 PM)DioChasek Wrote: I only disagree with two the vuvuzuela gun and the pickpocket gun. The former because you could actually see that thing becoming a halfway meta weapon if everyone could get their hands on it for 3 credits, as it is only 2 jobs (not including spy their) can get a hold of it so the odds of it showing up are slim in a given round.
The pickpocket gun doesnt have as good of a reason, it s more of a "why are we giving this to everybody?" vibe.
Yeah, I honestly agree with the vuvuzela opinion, I was throwing around the idea of making it 6TC, a fair bit more expensive but if it really is strong enough to warrant people being consistently concerned, it's probably a good idea?
Pickpocket gun was genuinely a "why is this engineering, this isn't thematic at all." Also it's rarely seen outside of RP, from what I've played. I'd like to see people experiment with it cause it has a surprising amount of content.
(09-05-2022, 10:56 PM)Love Wrote: More traitor toys to play with is always a good thing.Yeah, I definitely understand. Guardbuddy replicator was just because on the rare round that an RD pulled off a buddy replicator gimmick, it's always been funny to me and honestly it requires a lot of forethought and so you rarely see it, I feel like making it generalized will make it an item that people go "I want to base my round around this." instead of the average RD saying "There's way better options for less work." It also could be mixed in with mechanics and stuff since they are robots, hell even robotics, yknow? I just wanted to get it out of the RD only goody box.
Though I suppose at some point we'll have to start breaking them into themed sections for readability.
The guardbuddy replicator might be a bit hard for a non-RD to use.
And I worry the breaching charge will be a bit much. Every traitor round someone will low-effort their way into the armory.
Stims are probably priced fine to be incompatible with a lot of rampage items.
The donk provides a lot of the same functionality for much cheaper. And also heals you. Though the duration is quite a bit shorter. So probably fine.
Everything else looks good. Some might not see much use, but that's already true of a lot of items. And it doesn't hurt to enable gimmicks.
I expect there'll be an argument about the Vuvuzela, since only sec seems to generally be allowed the one-or-two-clicks-and-I-win things. But I know I'd like a nonlethal thing for traitors to have, for RP. Where there are more kidnappings and such. And the vuvuzela isn't exactly a stealth item, either. I hope it stays in, personally!
I really do hope people use bear traps and the pickpocket gun more, too!
It does solidify traitor as best antag, even more. But we should always be striving to make antags (well, and non-antags) more awesome and fun.
But heck, I'd not be for more choices and customization with other antags to get similar fun. Even if it means 'copying' from other codebases that have such.
I nerfed the donk a bit, cause ikea brought up that a 2tc box of 7 syndicate donks is a bit much. I made it 1tc for one donk, which is still pretty lenient but not nearly as absurd, what do you think of that?
RE: [PR] Changes to Traitor Generic Items - Jakson - 09-06-2022
All these changes are good changes, I support em
RE: [PR] Changes to Traitor Generic Items - KikiMofo - 09-06-2022
I think the advanced thermal scanners should stay as detective only because detectives whole thing is one of the only people on the station to have thermal scanners in the first place.
RE: [PR] Changes to Traitor Generic Items - MomoBerry - 09-06-2022
(09-06-2022, 09:00 AM)KikiMofo Wrote: I think the advanced thermal scanners should stay as detective only because detectives whole thing is one of the only people on the station to have thermal scanners in the first place.Yeah, they've been removed from the list alongside a few other items that people had reasonable balance issues with. Right now it's down to Single Bear Trap (2TC) Modified from original surplus option
Standard Breaching Charge (3TC) Modified from surplus option
Chameleon Bombs (4TC)
Moustache Grenade (3TC) -
Pickpocket Gun (3TC)
And syndicate cargo teleporter given to CE and banana grenade swapped to clown from surplus only, cause some of the surplus options are genuinely terrible.