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+--- Thread: [CLOSED PR] Removes Secoff lite AA from RP (/showthread.php?tid=18708)
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[CLOSED PR] Removes Secoff lite AA from RP - github_bot - 05-04-2022
PULL REQUEST DETAILS
[input wanted] [balance]
About the PR
Secoffs on RP have effectively light all access, with only head offices being unable to be opened by your average secoff. HoSes have AA for some reason on top of their already exclusive access. This pull requests removes that, with HoS getting the same access on the non RP servers plus what RP sec gets. RP sec loses most of their engineering access, most of their medical access, and most of their science access.
Why's this needed?
Why do secoffs need this much access on the RP server of all places. Aside from it discourgaing interactions it also makes it so security is the be all do all of the station, as they can access everything of note and as a result are asked to do everything. This PR aims to remove that abilty from secoffs, so they now are only able to access the lobby areas of departments and must find and ask another member of the department to come with them. Or get the AI to do it, which is already at their whim. This also gives antags a small advantage as there is now places they can go that security cannot.
Changelog
Code:
changelog
(u)Eagle
(+)Adjustments to secoffs and HoS accesses on the RP servers have been made. They are now for the most part only able to enter the lobbies of departments. If they need to go somewhere else, they gotta bring a pal from the department.PULL REQUEST DETAILS
RE: [PR] Removes Secoff lite AA from RP - Waffleloffle - 05-05-2022
not a fan of this at all. this won't stop sec from being in all sorts of places on the rp servers, it'll incentivize them carrying hacking tools on them at all times so they can get to that one call for help in gas storage in the first place
also who's to say that limiting sec's access further won't just result in more rounds where the sec team rps with themselves in their own department for 90 minutes
RE: [PR] Removes Secoff lite AA from RP - Cal - 05-05-2022
Why would the team trusted with protecting the station not have access to most of it?
RE: [PR] Removes Secoff lite AA from RP - Juggernaut2442 - 05-05-2022
I assume the main problem here is "Security is doing other jobs." however I do not think this is a good change for the RP servers. There is an RP rule (Rule 7: Stay in your lane. While you are capable of doing anything within the game mechanics, allow those who have selected the relevant job to attempt the task first.) to make sure that people don't go doing other jobs.
Also, sometimes there happens to be not enough players on station; especially no AI or Command members. When this is the case, I feel like Security having access to the understaffed areas and helping them out isn't necessarily a negative thing. And as Cal stated, why or rather how could the team be trusted with protecting the station and not have access to most of it? If someone from a department is in trouble and calls for help, and they are the only person in that department, the lack of access will be nothing but an annoying inconvenience.
Last point, "this also gives antags a small advantage as there is now places they can go that security cannot.". I feel there are already plenty of places antags can go to and hide in, or lock Security out of if they wish so. And giving some breathing room to antagonists, letting them create their stories instead of immediately stopping them in their tracks is one of the main tasks of security.
TL;DR:
1- We have a rule stopping sec from doing other jobs.
2- No access = harder to help.
3- This PR assumes pop is always good enough.
4- Security can and should give breathing room to antags if need be.
RE: [PR] Removes Secoff lite AA from RP - nefarious6th - 05-05-2022
I've been pretty vocal about some of the specific sec-in-other-dept issues we've been having and while this would nip those, my biggest hesitation is that rp is back in a spot on both servers across all timezones where engineering is running pretty light so borgs or sec ends up setting the engine. although I like the consideration of it being access-to-lobby-only in the majority of departments (yes, sec should be able to go into science, no they probably dont need to be making ttvs in tox lab again). I'm giving a fFrank and honest neutral on this because there's a Lot that I think needs consideration from our lil mapper backworkings but conceptually I get it and like it.
and that's like...not ALWAYS a thing that is happening with sec on rp as some mandated part of the game that has persisted for years and years, it's a thing that comes and goes like tide, but it's something that is still coming and going. for big changes like this, I think they gotta be able to endure over broad periods and I see this as being one of those things where it might be relevant for 3 or 4 months and then not as relevant for 3 or 4 after, etc.
outside of that, like I am not even going to lie on these Goon Station Forums, but with restricted access to other depts on rp, im definitely becoming hackersec or collecting ID cards to get where I need
only other biggest and glaringest and stinkiest and honestly hardest to resolve problem with this is that the lobby access stuff is...let's say it's normalized around the design of cog1? yea, we'll go with that. departments are little nuclear nodes uninterrupted by stuff and connected by Lobby there, but that's not true of all maps, like some evilly designed maps named clarion or horizon or destiny. annnnnnmnd mot to mention the access reqs between spawners is super hit or miss, so lobby access into science will get you in in cog1 and destiny but not cog2 or horizon and by goodness we lack the standardization to I think guarantee this would make intrinsic sense when done in practice. I'm thinking about having to walk through cargo or mining on donut 3 to get to the mining shuttle as an example of this.
uh finite and final note but I also hrm; I feel like with the broad access of normal off on rp, ntsos arent suuuuuper privileged above them since they're both relatively even. emphasizing that ntso has Command Access For Command Peoples I think moves ntso away from blueoff on rp and back towards hoslite which my personal take is that I'd rather they remain closer to an off than a hos. I get their access would be cut in line with off access, but when that happens, the command access starts to feel and seem like So Much More and my opinion is that it really shouldn't be.
interesting thread though. maybe as a more refined follow-up version or something we can look at splitting locker and equip access from area access and still let sec into areas but limit locker and equip now, especially since u can just bust a locker open in dire times if u gotta.
this long, sorry. my tldr is that it's conceptually tight but i dont think the spawner access and backend stuff we have right now is clean enough for the implementation of this to go as it prooobably should and as we'd expect it to based off the stuff being edited
RE: [PR] Removes Secoff lite AA from RP - Leeanei - 05-05-2022
If sec is using their enhanced access to push people out of jobs please ahelp it. A lot of the problems brought up are rules issues rather than sec access issues.
RE: [PR] Removes Secoff lite AA from RP - Kotlol - 05-05-2022
(05-05-2022, 05:20 AM)Leeanei Wrote: If sec is using their enhanced access to push people out of jobs please ahelp it. A lot of the problems brought up are rules issues rather than sec access issues.
Pretty much this. As a Sec officer I think it's a good idea to be a supportive role in departments that need it.
Yes I did a few times push doctors out of the way in medbay to heal myself since I am mid chase and nearly dieing.
But I don't really have time at these moments to wait for a doctor to come out of their conversation and heal me.
Infact I once was critical as a detective and I waited for a doctor to heal me while a chase was going on. It took them nearly 10 minutes to recover me.
For some reason I didn't die... but it did tick me off to NO HELL!
This is where I "personally" exempt the rule of "stay in your lane" if someone is RPing an incompetitent doctor and wants to give you a new heart to heal your toxin damage... while there is a traitor on the loose with a bomb. I think at that point self medicating isn't the worst. Infact... Sec has 1st aid kits so I consider it not too much.
Same goes for cloning.
I will be brunt and say I sometimes as Detective or Sec officer tend to do other peoples jobs including commands when they take too long in general.
"AI acting funny?" Shout at the heads to solve it.. to the point after 15 mins I just drag a head to fix the AI already.
A simple breach fix for engineering but the hole is still there after 10+ mins? Guess I am fixing it and repressurizing.
Cargo not selling an artifact that is making noise for 5+ mins? Guess I am going in there and pushing it out. (I even done this as a scientist to force an Artifiact to be shipped)
There are just so much moments where people in RP just "Stop functioning" to do their job cause something "Funny is happening" and they wanna watch it or join in even though it's NOT THEIR JOB to join. (Such as Sec beating up a changeling and they wanna join into the fighting)
This especially happens when there are emergency situations their departments have to solve that if they don't get to it.. the shift has to end early
Heck... lately alot of meteors been getting free pug shots at the stations even with 60+ people cause QM won't order shields and Security / Engineering won't deploy them or some staffy opened the crate so the shields now have to be dragged in 1 by 1 from cargo...
Rants aside from that... I do not think SecOfficers should lose AA. As a detective main I don't have that priveledge but I have let people die cause I couldn't open the blasted door and the AI was distracted.
If however a captain or sec officer is in your department LITTERLY DOING YOUR JOB but it's not an emergency? Ahelp it. The only moment I see this happening is if you are letting the sec officer wait for something that isn't important at all.
Keep sec's access. RP correctly. But don't get angry if sec does your job since it took your 15 mins for you to even start that job when it's CRUCIAL to happen.
RE: [PR] Removes Secoff lite AA from RP - Cal - 05-05-2022
(05-05-2022, 06:06 AM)Kotlol Wrote: Yes I did a few times push doctors out of the way in medbay to heal myself since I am mid chase and nearly dieing.
But I don't really have time at these moments to wait for a doctor to come out of their conversation and heal me.
Infact I once was critical as a detective and I waited for a doctor to heal me while a chase was going on. It took them nearly 10 minutes to recover me.
For some reason I didn't die... but it did tick me off to NO HELL!
even start that job when it's CRUCIAL to happen.
Abandon this mentality.
Let the criminal get away. Let the doctors treat you. Chat with them. Play a scene with them.
Remember - you're playing on RP. At the end of the day it's about roleplaying with the people around you.
You're denying doctors the opportunity to help you and yourself interaction with others.
As for breaches and stuff, I usually call and wait a minute or two and otherwise ask staff assistants if they're willing to help, this then makes it into an interactive and a teaching opportunity.
RE: [PR] Removes Secoff lite AA from RP - Ikea - 05-05-2022
I think overall sec on rp having more access is good, Id honestly be fine with classic sec having as much access if i knew it wouldnt be abused (hint it would be abused). Sec has overall less to do on roleplay and them being able to go around and talk is a good. A blanket nerf of sec access seems bad, though if theres a few specific areas used for powergaming and the like, they could be removed (mechanics and engineering storage seem like obvious and good choices here)
RE: [PR] Removes Secoff lite AA from RP - Kotlol - 05-05-2022
(05-05-2022, 06:53 AM)Cal Wrote:(05-05-2022, 06:06 AM)Kotlol Wrote: Yes I did a few times push doctors out of the way in medbay to heal myself since I am mid chase and nearly dieing.
But I don't really have time at these moments to wait for a doctor to come out of their conversation and heal me.
Infact I once was critical as a detective and I waited for a doctor to heal me while a chase was going on. It took them nearly 10 minutes to recover me.
For some reason I didn't die... but it did tick me off to NO HELL!
even start that job when it's CRUCIAL to happen.
Abandon this mentality.
Let the criminal get away. Let the doctors treat you. Chat with them. Play a scene with them.
Remember - you're playing on RP. At the end of the day it's about roleplaying with the people around you.
You're denying doctors the opportunity to help you and yourself interaction with others.
As for breaches and stuff, I usually call and wait a minute or two and otherwise ask staff assistants if they're willing to help, this then makes it into an interactive and a teaching opportunity.
Even if I am dieing..? Well okay. Letting the bad guy get away then from now on. But fine with me.
I tend to only teach players when they say: "I just got this job and have no idea what to do" but that's an actual good idea on teaching people how to fix breaches.
But good to know that I am not fully wrong... that sometimes as Sec you have to do jobs or else it hinders everyone's RP
RE: [PR] Removes Secoff lite AA from RP - DioChasek - 05-05-2022
This seems like yet another “sec has a lot of seasoned players currently and traitors are not please nerf” change.
RE: [PR] Removes Secoff lite AA from RP - Kotlol - 05-05-2022
(05-05-2022, 10:44 AM)DioChasek Wrote: This seems like yet another “sec has a lot of seasoned players currently and traitors are not please nerf” change.
I think RP's case it's more or less.
"Antagonists aren't RPing or targeting players doing something important thus making security jump in right away"
Seriously... Sec Officers in RP are litterly discouraged to even search you at the 1st arrest.
RE: [PR] Removes Secoff lite AA from RP - Cal - 05-05-2022
(05-05-2022, 10:40 AM)Kotlol Wrote: Even if I am dieing..?
Yeah dude, the cloner's right over yon.
RE: [PR] Removes Secoff lite AA from RP - DioChasek - 05-05-2022
There are a lot of qualifiers being omitted on the when to do it yourself and when to engage in rp with medical staff. Good example when they are busy with some other mass casualty event caused by the antag you are in pursuit of in an “ I ain’t got time to bleed” moment skeleton and or puritan officers also have to take special care to avoid that whole “we don’t have any strange reagent available hope their cloner-fu is on point scenario.” Blob or nukies round on rp all bets are off of course.
RE: [PR] Removes Secoff lite AA from RP - Cal - 05-05-2022
we're getting off topic but if you have puritan you accept that you may die for any reason or no reason and not be salvagable