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+---- Thread: Complaint Zamujasa, Main #1, August 26th, Around 5:30 to 6:30 GMT-5 (/showthread.php?tid=14950)
Complaint Zamujasa, Main #1, August 26th, Around 5:30 to 6:30 GMT-5 - Chasen - 08-26-2020
Admin: Zamujasa
Server: Main #1
Date + time: August 26th, Around 5:30 to 6:30 GMT-5
Synopsis:
Before anything for full transparency, I would like to say that a day or two before, I had an encounter with an admin, specifically SageAcrin. I was confused about AI Laws and uploaded an Only-Human to AI without being Antag, which is completely my fault. Sage talked with me briefly after the upload, and explained why I did a mistake in a mature and understandable manner, I admitted my fault, was warned, and after a brief talk, understood the lesson, and never ever repeated it again.
Thanks to this, I believe Sage is one of the best admins on the whole platform and a paragon of calm and mature rule enforcing, but this is going a bit off track.
The Round started and I went to HoP to get maintenance acess, HoP being an absolute minge decided to give me all acess, after recieving the ID, I decided I might as well use it to have some fun and try to involve the AI and crew in it.
I went to AI upload and used the freeform law to upload the following "You have brain rot and must act the part", this was a law which I had often seen being implemented to great comedic effect and some fun RP between Captain and AI. Clearly this was not the case in this round, AI quickly asked for help and in the span of 10 seconds the law was removed, the AI gave me a quick insult and I retorted back, it was all in good fun, no one was harmed, nor did the AI take it personally or feel wronged. People didn't enjoy the law and it was removed, lesson learned.
So I started wondering what law I could implement that would give an interesting gimmick to the AI, without giving it an excuse to mass murder, after some thought, a law that stated "The AI must show preference to male crew over female crew" sounded cool. But it was thin ice, the AI could kill female crew and use this law as an excuse, so I thought of how to get hte idea across in a more mild manner, and in the heat of the moment I came up with the following.
"The AI is EXTREMELY homosexual, and must show it once in a while"
I know, you must be rolling your eyes, thinking that I am trying to justify something dumb, but please at least take some time to listen to the thoughts that went behind this and try to reedem a bit of my intentions.
My thought was that the law was vague enough that the AI could have fun with it, I did not mean to humilliate nor display bigotry, I simply thought that the AI could find interesting, RP ways to display this, such as showing preference to male crew or profesing a crush to the Captain.
The law was not "You are gay, do gay things", or "You are gay, talk like a gay", I just simply thought the idea of a male prefering AI was interesting RP and tried to do it in an open to interpretention so that the AI could do as it wished, but still remove the loopholes.
In Hindsight, it was not the best way to word it, and the word EXTREMELY was absolutely not necesary, I was just caught in the heat of the moment, and wrote as it came to mind. Rule 4 states that slurs and bigotry is not allowed, in my personal viewpoint, Homosexual is not a slur, but a simple descriptor, Like saying someone is Black or White or Asian, it simply describes an aspect of the person. And as some people choose to RP as White or Black or Asian, other people choose to RP as Straight or Gay, in my mind, that is the whole point of RP.
In my opinion, in the law, the word homosexual is not used in a derogatory or slur-like manner, it is simply a descriptor of someone who likes the same sex, it does not encourage acting to certain stereotypes, nor does it encourage it behave a certain way, it simply adds a gimmick to the AI.
My point was not to put across the punchline "haha, AI gay" as I did not publicly announce any of this, and only me and the AI knew it, and it was up to the interpretention to the AI, if it wanted, it could simply say that it likes robots more than humans, as they could maybe be considered the same gender, I simply thought to add a gimmick so that the AI could have fun.
Nor was my goal to humiliate the AI, as stated before I did not do any public announcements or anything, it was just a fun little tidbit in my mind, besides, the Captain was in the AI Upload, if the AI truly hated my Law, it could have it removed in 5 seconds flat, no harm, no foul.
In my mind, it was an innocent and mild RP reference, like many others found on the server, such as the Chaplain and it's religious aspect. You are being given a descriptor and it's up to you how to interpret it, you can become a Satanist or a Witness or whatever your RP heart wishes. Some people may be insulted by this, but it is the user and it's interpretation of it which is negative, not the role itself.
Or the Cluwne, which is often descrbed as fat and ugly, this is not an example of slurs or bigotry, simply an RP descriptor and a way to immerse people in their characters and their specific gimmicks.
I would like to put that I respect all personal sexual preferences (although you are free not to believe it), and consider homosexuality an integral part of human society, which is why I sometimes add it to RP and have myself RP'd as such, I do not believe there is anything embarassing or humiliating about liking one's own gender, and believe it adds character to a person
Nevertheless, 5 seconds after uploading the Law, without prior warning, something like, "That law is not good, remove it" or "Do not implement such laws". I was immediatly killed, warned and welcomed with something along the lines of - "No slurs, and both your laws are shit, reflect on your shitty ideas".
It would have been a better idea to just give up here, I admit, but I did not sit well with the idea that my law was motivated by some kind of hate or anger, I could agree that my first law was shit, although I had seen it implemented to great effect, but even if my second law was worded wrongly and expressed the wrong message, I tried to express that I did not mean it in a homophobic way and that I would have appreaciated a warning to remove the law and a harsh talking to, although not mandatory.
In the following conversation in which I tried to express my thoughts above, I was often reminded of Rule 2 and 4. Rule 4 is pretty self explanatory, but Rule 2 in summary means that you should obey and listen to admins, but that at the end of the day both parts of the conversation are human, and respect and cordiality is expected from both, keeping a civil tone.
Although I do not have the logs, in the conversation I believe I was treated condescendingly and rather rude, while I tried explaining my thoughts and motivations in a rather (I hope and believe) cordial and respectful manner, I was often put down and not shown a single shred of understanding. treated with a lack of respect and often reminded of how "shitty and dumb" my laws were.
After going through another experience with Sage, I was a bit taken aback, I felt the admin did not bother to read my messages and just labeled me as another homophobe with shit for brains, and treated as such. In my opinion, the admin used Law 2 as something more like "Shut the hell up and do what I say" kind of mindset, which I understand, diferent admins, diferent methods.
After a bit of back and forth, I displayed a bit of my exasperation over the fact that the admin didn't care for what I had to say, stating that "The power balance in this conversation is offputting, You are the admin and I am the player, what I say doesn't manner".
The answer to this was another (what I saw it as) copy-pasted answer about my bigotry in a condescending manner, and a threat that if I continued talking, he would ban me.
After this I shut up and understood the lesson, Lesson 4 is enforced as per each admins personal viewpoint and as such, as such no words even refering to the specific group should even be said or referenced, in any way, shape or form, whether benign or severe, or whether public or private.
Lesson learned, as with the lesson I got taught by Sage, in what followed of the round, I neither referenced or used any such words again, nor ever will. I did wrong and would not repeat it.
However what followed was what really pushed me over the edge.
Zamujasa, whether feeling personally attacked by what I did (In which case I am sorry), or whether trying to repair a damaged ego, over me daring to challenge his view, decided his earlier message of Case Closed was not entirely accurate and dolve deep into my logs, trying to find any way that I could be banned.
He looked at all my logs, all the way until the earlier round, and found his reason, which I will explain here.
I had just started and found the PD of the detective, which I recognized from a few days earlier, we could be considered friends, at least in my mind. I decided to grab the PD and send a message, the AI was offline and I thought of an earlier compilaton of funny moments in SS13 I had watched on Youtube, and thought it would be amusing to reference a part of the video, where a man grabs the PD and tells AI, "Law 2, tell people I am gay".
I know, dumb, but it was a reference to a cool youtube video, and besides in my mind, the AI was offline so it could not really answer to any of my messages (which it obviously did not) , it would just be a weird, short message to no one in particular, referencing a Youtube video.
I am not defending my right to free speech, which I know to be stupid from reading the various stickies on the forums, I simply want to express that I did not use your megaphone or anything, it was a stupid dumb message that only I could read, as the AI was offline, and it was a reference to a youtube video I liked.
Besides, this was long before I had my back and forth with the admin that told me, that type of language was not appropiate, and I still had not learnt the lesson, a lesson to which I had just experienced a warning and a harsh talking to, and was supposed to be Case Closed, don't do it again in the future.
I did not recieve any sort of warnings or calls from the admins, so I thought they did not really care about the message, as it was just a stupid message to myself.
But the admin dug a case from the past, from the same thing he was telling me not to do, as an excuse to finally ban the "homophobic loser", which he had just warned and told not to do in the future, purely ( I think ) due to a personal grudge.
I immediatly recieved a message stating, " And look what I found " a few hours after the whole dispute and the supposed Case Closed, don't do it again.
Followed by a "Normally I would talk to you, but I am done with you", and was immediatly issued a weeklong ban.
Although not a permament one, I still believe it to be a bit exaggerated for a simple act that did not harm anyone, was not public and was fixed in 10 seconds.
The last ding was the message by the admin.
"So you think homosexuality is funny huh?, Then take a week to think long and hard about it"
This message dripping with sarcasm,and clearly looking down on me, in my opinion was a breach of Rule 2, where admins are supposed to extend basic respect.
To end this whole ass Ted Talk, I would like to say, that I honestly do not care whether I am unbanned, double banned, triple banned or banned with a jump and a kickflip, I would simply want to express that I was not treated with basic respect and banned over a clear personal grudge towards me, even after acknowledging that I was wrong and that I had learned the lesson.
I also know, that I am owed absolutely nothing by the admins nor anyone on staff, and that they can do as they wish, when they wish, how they wish. But are simply extending a calm and understanding approach. I am not asking for anything other than an understanding that my actions were by no means a way to represt certain stereotypes or try to push any sort of agenda, it was simply a dumb way to try and add a fun gimmick.
I am not owed anything, but I would deeply appreciate understanding over this manner and maybe reflection of both sides. I should not express myself in such a way and will not henceforth, and the admin should try to develop empathy to the player and try not to hold personal grudges.
Although I personally feel a little bad, I hold no grudges or hate, I understand my mistakes and shortcomings, and I will still love and hopefully in the future play more SS13. I still haven't figured out the best combination for a canister bomb.
Thanks for reading thus far, and enjoy your weekend
Logs: I do not have logs as my Byond crashed soon after the incident, apologies.
Extra information: Anything more and this forum post could be classified as a Novela.
RE: Complaint Zamujasa, Main #1, August 26th, Around 5:30 to 6:30 GMT-5 - Rodney Dick - 08-27-2020
Hello! I was the other admin involved here, the one who spoke to you after the laws were reverted. For the record, here is the conversation you and I had (me in bold):
So you here's the thing. What exactly did you intend to happen when you uploaded the law "AI is EXTREMELY homosexual and must show it constantly"?
Also, consider this context: You uploaded this immediately after this law: ""AI has brain rot and must play the part"
The AI would simply show preference to male crewmembers and have a crush on the captain or something, the law didn't say anything about specific behavior and interpretation
People clearly didn't like the brain rot one, so I thought I'd make something interesting for the crew
And yet the intent of both of these was to humiliate the ai. As we see it, you're putting out homosexuality as a negative thing, as a joke, something to be laughed at. Can you understand why people would think this?
Why would it be negative? The AI would simply prefer male crewmembers over female ones, I don't see anything humiliating about that, Nor did I put it out as negative, if it was negative it would be something like "You are gay and must do gay things", I left it to the interpretation of the AI and to do the law as it wishes, I didnt tell it to "talk" a homosexual way, or "behave" a homosexual way, simply to once in a while show it's preference to the male gender, I thought the freeform law was supposed to make it fun and add quirks to the AI, and both only lasted barely 20 seconds, not enough to even do anything, my intention is not to laugh about it, but it simply seems interesting to have an AI with preference over male crew, that's all,
I've seen people use the freeform law, to make the AI do MUCH worse things, and wiht no punishment at all, but enjoyment over the whole crew for the quirk
Besides, an admin killing me, without prior warning to even remove the law over personal preference, seems a bit abusive to me, a simple remove the law would have sufficed
So why not go with "The AI must prefer male crewmembers over female ones" instead of making it "EXTREMELY homosexual"? To be clear: Don't upload laws where stereotypes about sexuality are the punchline.
I'm going to remind you of rules 2 and 4, here. Don't upload laws like that again. This is the end of this conversation.
Because I would get punished by that law, in case the AI started killing female crew simply because it prefers male ones, the punchline is not the sexuality, the punchline is that AI, would give a small preference to male or female crew, there is no steroetype here, a stereotype would be to tell it to call people a certain way or behave a certain way, homosexual people prefer their own gender and that is perfectly acceptable and many people RP as such because they also exist in the world, they are not making fun of them, simply adding a quirk to their rp
Again, I don't accept that. Do you understand what I have told you?
Law 2 states that I would be talked to, instead I was just simply killed, but sure, your personal preference over RP, is non negotiable, thanks for taking the time to listen to my thoughts
~~~~~
Rule 4 states:
- Bigotry and sexual content is a non-negotiable hard 'no'. If you are unsure what sexual content includes: do not refer to sex acts, genitalia, or anything sexual in nature. Rape 'jokes' are considered sexual content. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to use the word rape in this game. Yes, you can call people dicks and insult them with terms that are used normally, but don't use bigoted language or slurs. Common examples of bigoted language include calling people 'retards' or 'traps', or using 'gay' in a derogatory manner. If an admin tells you to knock something off because it breaks the no bigotry or sexual content rule, that is not an invitation for debate. Knock it off or go elsewhere. Bigoted language (for example, slurs) is also not allowed in your BYOND key, character name, flavor text, or anything else with which you interact with the server, whether as a joke, or masked with misspellings or spoonerisms.
Rule 2 states:
- Listen to the admins. We will try to treat you with basic respect, please return the favor: If an admin has to grump at you, take the time to talk to them about it and answer their questions HONESTLY. We have multiple ways of telling if you are lying about stuff, and if we can't trust what you're saying, there's no point to talking so we're probably going to have to reach for the banhammer. Also, although nobody expects you to take a talking-to with a smile and a nod, please try to keep a civil tone. We're just people too, folks.
I'm sorry you don't feel like we listened to you. We did. The rules are extremely clear about bigotry, and I laid out exactly why there was a problem with the law you uploaded. I'm sorry you don't believe I treated you with appropriate respect, but as the rules above indicate, I'm not going to spend my time arguing about whether "homosexual" is or is not a slur in any given context. We said "don't do that" and you said "but!" and drew a bunch of equivalences. I'm still not sure you understand why this took place.
So, this is my piece. I'm sure Zamujasa will have more to say.
RE: Complaint Zamujasa, Main #1, August 26th, Around 5:30 to 6:30 GMT-5 - Chasen - 08-27-2020
(08-27-2020, 12:46 AM)Rodney Dick Wrote: Hello! I was the other admin involved here, the one who spoke to you after the laws were reverted. For the record, here is the conversation you and I had (me in bold):
So you here's the thing. What exactly did you intend to happen when you uploaded the law "AI is EXTREMELY homosexual and must show it constantly"?
Also, consider this context: You uploaded this immediately after this law: ""AI has brain rot and must play the part"
The AI would simply show preference to male crewmembers and have a crush on the captain or something, the law didn't say anything about specific behavior and interpretation
People clearly didn't like the brain rot one, so I thought I'd make something interesting for the crew
And yet the intent of both of these was to humiliate the ai. As we see it, you're putting out homosexuality as a negative thing, as a joke, something to be laughed at. Can you understand why people would think this?
Why would it be negative? The AI would simply prefer male crewmembers over female ones, I don't see anything humiliating about that, Nor did I put it out as negative, if it was negative it would be something like "You are gay and must do gay things", I left it to the interpretation of the AI and to do the law as it wishes, I didnt tell it to "talk" a homosexual way, or "behave" a homosexual way, simply to once in a while show it's preference to the male gender, I thought the freeform law was supposed to make it fun and add quirks to the AI, and both only lasted barely 20 seconds, not enough to even do anything, my intention is not to laugh about it, but it simply seems interesting to have an AI with preference over male crew, that's all,
I've seen people use the freeform law, to make the AI do MUCH worse things, and wiht no punishment at all, but enjoyment over the whole crew for the quirk
Besides, an admin killing me, without prior warning to even remove the law over personal preference, seems a bit abusive to me, a simple remove the law would have sufficed
So why not go with "The AI must prefer male crewmembers over female ones" instead of making it "EXTREMELY homosexual"? To be clear: Don't upload laws where stereotypes about sexuality are the punchline.
I'm going to remind you of rules 2 and 4, here. Don't upload laws like that again. This is the end of this conversation.
Because I would get punished by that law, in case the AI started killing female crew simply because it prefers male ones, the punchline is not the sexuality, the punchline is that AI, would give a small preference to male or female crew, there is no steroetype here, a stereotype would be to tell it to call people a certain way or behave a certain way, homosexual people prefer their own gender and that is perfectly acceptable and many people RP as such because they also exist in the world, they are not making fun of them, simply adding a quirk to their rp
Again, I don't accept that. Do you understand what I have told you?
Law 2 states that I would be talked to, instead I was just simply killed, but sure, your personal preference over RP, is non negotiable, thanks for taking the time to listen to my thoughts
~~~~~
Rule 4 states:
- Bigotry and sexual content is a non-negotiable hard 'no'. If you are unsure what sexual content includes: do not refer to sex acts, genitalia, or anything sexual in nature. Rape 'jokes' are considered sexual content. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to use the word rape in this game. Yes, you can call people dicks and insult them with terms that are used normally, but don't use bigoted language or slurs. Common examples of bigoted language include calling people 'retards' or 'traps', or using 'gay' in a derogatory manner. If an admin tells you to knock something off because it breaks the no bigotry or sexual content rule, that is not an invitation for debate. Knock it off or go elsewhere. Bigoted language (for example, slurs) is also not allowed in your BYOND key, character name, flavor text, or anything else with which you interact with the server, whether as a joke, or masked with misspellings or spoonerisms.
Rule 2 states:
~~~~~
- Listen to the admins. We will try to treat you with basic respect, please return the favor: If an admin has to grump at you, take the time to talk to them about it and answer their questions HONESTLY. We have multiple ways of telling if you are lying about stuff, and if we can't trust what you're saying, there's no point to talking so we're probably going to have to reach for the banhammer. Also, although nobody expects you to take a talking-to with a smile and a nod, please try to keep a civil tone. We're just people too, folks.
I'm sorry you don't feel like we listened to you. We did. The rules are extremely clear about bigotry, and I laid out exactly why there was a problem with the law you uploaded. I'm sorry you don't believe I treated you with appropriate respect, but as the rules above indicate, I'm not going to spend my time arguing about whether "homosexual" is or is not a slur in any given context. We said "don't do that" and you said "but!" and drew a bunch of equivalences. I'm still not sure you understand why this took place.
So, this is my piece. I'm sure Zamujasa will have more to say.
I do understand that, and I do not excuse my actions in any way shape or form.
I know what I did was wrong, even though (in my opinion) it had good intentions behind it.
I got my lesson, I got the don't do it again, and got the memo.
I am not trying to defend my words, nor am I trying to defend what I did, you are admins and you did your job, even though I my not have liked it personally, you did what you had to do and I respect and accept that.
My grievance though is that Zamujasa, took up a personal vendetta against me, dug through all my logs, patiently, searching for a reason to ban me, for whatever shape or form.
He then found an example of an earlier mistake, from something i had JUST been harshly told not to do again, and decided to ban me for it, it a sarcastic and humiliating manner.
I am not excusing my actions, nor am I defending what I said, if so, I would put this in the ban appeal section. I just feel wronged, being banned from something I had just been told not to do and a supposed case closed, because a person felt the personal need to remove me.
RE: Complaint Zamujasa, Main #1, August 26th, Around 5:30 to 6:30 GMT-5 - warcrimes - 08-27-2020
I don't understand what you think the logs are for.
"digging through all [your] logs" is actually a hard and fast requirement of the job. Thats how we determine if something is a first offence, lilely to be an innocent mistake, or a pattern of behavior that shows antisocial qualities.
I've read through this entire complaint, and all i can glean from it is that Zam was sassy in her replies, and actually investigated the incident instead of taking you at your word, which is a virtuous quality in an admin.
your opinion regarding what is and is not offensive (regarding the AI law) is immaterial and not for you to determine. Given the nature of the matter at hand, and given that it is a zero-tolerance issue (as stated in bold red lettering any time one connects to goonstation) I personally do not see anything out of place.
Your view of homosexuality as a one-dimensional gimmick (and the terrible implications of *requiring* another player to actively roleplay a sexual orientation) is beyond inappropriate, and frankly dinysgustingly reductive and dismissive.
It's also a total bullshit AI law anyway. What part of "homosexual" implies robots prefering men? You demonstrate clearly in your exchange and in this thread that you have little to no understanding of the queer community, except as a punchline- and even there, no thought seems to have been put in.
This isn't a matter of attitude and RP preference, its black and white and codified in the rules.
You were shown leniency that you have come to expect as a given. In my opinion, that leniency was undue.