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Reworking Motives (I’ve got the Joy edition) - Printable Version

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Reworking Motives (I’ve got the Joy edition) - Sundance - 06-07-2019

EDIT: This post was made in 2019 when things were a little different. I’ve amended it to suit 2020 and trimmed some fat:

Big Idea 1: Hunger and Thirst are balanced a little so that you actually eat/drink during a round*


Hunger has 5 stages. It takes 30 minutes to go from 100 to 25 (Malnutrition). NB: These effects are accumulative!

Stage 1* (100-75): Sated. Gives you the “Sated” bioeffect if food is eaten during this stage
Stage 2 (75-50): Peckish. Other than a grumbly message at 75 and a grumbly message at 50, it has no other cons.
Stage 3* (50-25): Hungry. Your stomach gains sentience!
Stage 4 (25-0): Malnutrition. Gains “Malnutrition” ailment. See below.
Stage 5 (0) Extreme Malnutrition.

Thirst has 5 stages. It takes 25 minutes to go from 100 to 25 (Dehydrated). NB: These effects are accumulative!

Stage 1* (100-75): Hydrated. Gives you the “Hydrated” bioeffect if liquid is drank during this stage.
Stage 2 (75-50) Thirsty. Same as Peckish, a message at 75 and at 50.
Stage 3* (50-25) Parched. Your eyes and mouth start to dry.
Stage 4 (25-0) Dehydration. Gains “Dehydrated effect”. See below.
Stage 5 (0) Extreme Dehydration.

* Notes:

1. Stage 1 gives you positive bioeffect, giving you the “Sated” and “Hydrated” status. These statuses both decrease the Hunger/Thirst rate by 25% while active and increases your stamina/health by a small amount respectively.
2. Stage 3 has no negative effects but is much more obvious to you and your crewmembers. For Hunger, your stomach will growl at other crew (if the crew is hungry, theirs will growl back!). For Thirst, your eyes will start to cloud slightly (akin to welding without glasses) and you’ll occasionally smack your lips due to how dry your mouth is.
Big Idea 2: Hunger and Thirst now have ailments* once they reach a threshold.

Ailment for Hunger and Thirst = Malnutrition / Dehydration

Effects:
1. You gain the currently implemented “apathy” effect, whereby you “don’t feel like doing that”. This should be toned down somewhat and food/drink related items should not be apathetic.
2. Food/Drink effectiveness decreases by 50%, meaning you’ll have to eat/drink more to stave off your needs.
3. Max Stamina/Health is reduced by 25% / 15%
4. At zero Hunger or Thirst, Malnutrition or Dehydration becomes extreme, reducing Max Stamina / Health by a further 25%/15%! Don’t get in a fight!


Cure: Nutrients/Saline OR Lots of eating/drinking.

Nutrients is a pill which is available in medical/medical vending machines, and other alternatives*. It is only effective if you have Malnutrition. It will rapidly increase your hunger bar back to 40 so long as it is in your system. Saline Solution is a common medicine, it now works to cure Dehydration in the same manner as Malnutrition. There are now other alternatives.*
OR
Lots of eating/drinking. The ailment will cure itself if you bring your bar back up to 40. This may prove a little more difficult than normal due to the 50% food/drink effectiveness!

* Notes: 
1. It’s an ailment, but I’d personally think it would be very cool if something else other than the medscan reveals it. I think the penlight would be great for this!
2. Other alternatives could be Desperate Dan’s Vitamin pills and DD Isotonic in the vending machines. It works, but it’s DD! Botany alternatives could be Soylent Green and Coconut! 

Big Idea 3: Stress
!!NOTE: This a WIP and requires further discussion!!

Stress is an amalgamation of hygiene, sleep and various factors. It is unlike the other motives in that it is not based off time and starts off at 0, going up to 100. It’s not meant to be something that’s sudden, it’s meant to ramp up slowly but surely over time.

Things that cause stress: (note: This list is not concrete and is mostly fun spitballing)

+2 slipping on vomit/piss/blood
+4 an item of clothing gets a a dirty prefix*
+5 pissing yourself
+ 1/min if miasma in your system*
+1 wraith speaks to you
+5 ingesting certain chemicals that target brain i.e: Sarin, etc.
+10 if Ailment
+5 if missing limb or organ
+10 if on Fire
+5 if Suffocating
+10 Entering The Void
+20 ejecting from cloning
+ 50 reading the King in Yellow
+ 50 Disaster round

Things that alleviate stress 

-4 removing prefixes from clothing
-Varied per min if drug in system
-5 eating a meal cooked by the chef or a drink made by a barman
-10 unwrapping a present
-10 escaping on the shuttle
-10 Eating a painkiller if in red health/critical or is effected by pain
-2/3 per min getting some rest on a bed/sleeper
-20 Winning the slot machine
-10 Removing Ailment
-5 is missing limb/organ is replaced.
-10 Ingesting Fluoxetine. Addictive.
-25 Ingesting Joy pill. Highly addictive and mutagenic.*
-1 per min having a Shower.
-1 Working out.

Notes: 

1. Cleaning your clothing which removes the prefix removes this Stress!
2. Doctors, Security and the Chaplain have a bulwark towards dead things and aren't effected by Miasma!
3. Fluoxetine is medical based. Be warned it is addictive, so use is sparingly. Joy on the other hand is available in DD and can be grown in Botany as a mutation of Glowing Fruit. It will mutate your ass but you’ll be stress free. I’ve got the joy...
4. Antagonists could be naturally resilient towards stress (or might not get stressed at all!)


Big idea #4: Stress as ailment.
Stress is a little more spaced out and more in the background than both Food/Drink

Stage 1 (0-30): Comfortable. No effects. 
Stage 2 (30-80): Troubled. Similar to peckish, you receive a message in 30 and a message when you're about to reach 80
Stage 3 (80-100): Disturbed. Gains "Disturbed" ailment.
Stage 4 (100): Deeply Disturbed.

Ailment: Disturbed.
1. You’ll whisper/mutter to yourself occasionally.
2. Observing, it will show up that they look visibly upset and confused.
3. As a debuff, occasionally your intents will switch at random. This could be coupled with the text “You feel harmless!” or “You feel aggressive!”, etc.
4. At 100 stress, you become vacant and unable to use computers (like brain damaged). This is coupled with uncontrollable shaking.
 
Cure: Antipsychotic OR Stress relief.

Halo is a good cure for this. The cure functions exactly like Nutrients/Saline, in that it is ineffective for treating Stress unless you have the Disturbed ailment. When Halo is in your system, it will rapidly decrease your stress to 60.
OR
Stress relief. Due to the fact that the Disturbed Ailment does not actually reduce effectiveness, a nip in the Sleeper or taking a few drugs/chefs meals will fix what ails you, but it must be reduced to 60 to cure the Ailment.

Final thoughts - what do you think? Too complex? Too debilitating? Juuuust right? 

RE: Reworking Motives (I’ve got the Joy edition) - Wisecrack34 - 06-07-2019

Why are all the good things getting put in while I can't play, last update I was there for was a bug fix >:C

RE: Reworking Motives (I’ve got the Joy edition) - drWoof - 06-08-2019

even though I don't play on the RP server too much, this seems like it would be a huge improvement to the motive system, and the stress mechanic ( especially seeing the clown die ) seems very fun

RE: Reworking Motives (I’ve got the Joy edition) - Technature - 06-08-2019

I like these.

I feel that food shortage problems should take longer than water shortage problems. You can go three weeks without food. You can barely go half that without water.

Artifacts. Activating certain artifacts can increase or reduce stress! Instrument artifacts can be soothing and make people feel relaxed (normal instruments can be under certain circumstances too maybe?). Noise Maker Artifacts can live up to their annoying as fuck noises and slowly increase stress to everyone in the area.

Out of curiosity, how high of a chance would Maximum stress be lethal? If it gets nasty I can see someone just beating someone senseless til it kicks in.

RE: Reworking Motives (I’ve got the Joy edition) - Sundance - 06-08-2019

(06-08-2019, 10:03 AM)Technature Wrote: I feel that food shortage problems should take longer than water shortage problems.  You can go three weeks without food.  You can barely go half that without water.

That was my intention actually - I ganked the figures, fixed there! 

Now you probably noticed that it's the same time to reach 25, but the threshold of damage for thirst is much lower (starting at 40 instead of 25), meaning you'll be in danger quicker than hunger. Hunger is also not lethal, infact by my figures you could go for an hour without eating, but your max stamina will be depleted to to lowest it can go without going into unconsciousness - someone pushing could knock you out! 

Quote: Artifacts
 
The beauty about the stress mechanic is that it's so up to interpretation of what could cause stress. Poor hygiene is a must for increasing stress, as is death and sleep should definitely act as a last ditch effort if there's no docs, but aside from that.. loud noises? Sounds right down the stress mechanic alley.

Quote: how high of a chance would Maximum stress be lethal?
Any damage (not stress, actual damage) if stress is 100, and it's a roll of the dice. If you are 100 stress and wall yourself up, you will not die. But as soon as you leave your cave, you're exposing yourself. That's really the theme of this whole ramble.. that at the lowest threshold you become vulnerable rather than outright dead. It gives players agency to fix the mess they're in.

RE: Reworking Motives (I’ve got the Joy edition) - Wisecrack34 - 06-08-2019

Alcohol temporarily making you immune to the effects of stress would be cool

RE: Reworking Motives (I’ve got the Joy edition) - Frank_Stein - 06-08-2019

I missed Sundance posts. They're so well thought out and formated.

I think other jobs having unique stress advantages and disadvantages could be fun. Janitor should be strong against messes, Engineers against any kind of environmental stresses like cold or heat

Clown could be completely immune to stress altogether.

Is there currently a negative for overindulgence in food and drink? That could be a level above 100, which simply adds fatness and involuntary urination respectively
(06-08-2019, 12:55 PM)Wisecrack34 Wrote: Alcohol temporarily making you immune to the effects of stress would be cool
Yeah, alcohol could really use some kind of unique bonuses outside the regular food dynamic, especially when it comes to cocktails, though that's an entirely different conversation

RE: Reworking Motives (I’ve got the Joy edition) - Technature - 06-08-2019

(06-08-2019, 12:49 PM)Sundance Wrote:
(06-08-2019, 10:03 AM)Technature Wrote: I feel that food shortage problems should take longer than water shortage problems.  You can go three weeks without food.  You can barely go half that without water.

That was my intention actually - I ganked the figures, fixed there! 

Now you probably noticed that it's the same time to reach 25, but the threshold of damage for thirst is much lower (starting at 40 instead of 25), meaning you'll be in danger quicker than hunger. Hunger is also not lethal, infact by my figures you could go for an hour without eating, but your max stamina will be depleted to to lowest it can go without going into unconsciousness - someone pushing could knock you out! 

Quote: how high of a chance would Maximum stress be lethal?
Any damage (not stress, actual damage) if stress is 100, and it's a roll of the dice. If you are 100 stress and wall yourself up, you will not die. But as soon as you leave your cave, you're exposing yourself. That's really the theme of this whole ramble.. that at the lowest threshold you become vulnerable rather than outright dead. It gives players agency to fix the mess they're in.

That's fair on food and water stuff.

What I meant by the chance was "If you punch someone at 100 stress once, what's the likelihood it can turn lethal?  2%?  10%?".  Stuff like that.

RE: Reworking Motives (I’ve got the Joy edition) - Frank_Stein - 06-08-2019

What if acquiring a lot of stress very suddenly activated a fight or flight response, giving a temporary stamina boost?

RE: Reworking Motives (I’ve got the Joy edition) - ZeWaka - 06-09-2019

I really like this! Motives haven't been in the best spot for a while now, and this seems like a good compromise.

also big note: we(kyle)'re in the process of merging the organ patch, which would make things like stomach organs actually things!

Re: actual implementation, I'm going to go over some stuff that would be prohibitive in actually bringing this to SS13. I really like everything else, but I'm just going to go over the potential problems I see. Not trying to shit on everything, but I just want to bring up problems from a coding standpoint.

(06-07-2019, 08:54 AM)Sundance Wrote: 3. Players eating in your presence locks your movement, causing you to stare ravenously.
Potentially expensive. Eating is not really built for this, on a completed Eat the function would need to loop through mobs in viewers and then check their hunger status and then apply a stun effect, which could get expensive fast, especially if you eat 100 things in 5 seconds.

(06-07-2019, 08:54 AM)Sundance Wrote: [/b]Nutrients is a chemical pill which is available in medical/medical vending machines. When ingested it will heal the player over time to 30 hunger points. If player is above 30 hunger points, it has no effect. 
I think it would be better if this was replaced with an existing chemical?

(06-07-2019, 08:54 AM)Sundance Wrote: 1. By being an Ailment, this means it shows up on a health scanner (like shock, cardiac arrest, etc). For the purposes of coding, hunger and extreme hunger should be kept as separate ailments, same for thirst. 
imp. note: child

(06-07-2019, 08:54 AM)Sundance Wrote: 2. This adds an food overlay to the player, so Terrance Philip looks like a big pizza waltzing around.
unclear. would you still be able to interact with said player? overlay would just be visible to you, i presume... would require some weird stuff, akin to hallucinations but not separate objs


(06-07-2019, 08:54 AM)Sundance Wrote: +2 an item of clothing gets a a dirty prefix*
imp. note: would need onDirty event calling to holder mob

(06-07-2019, 08:54 AM)Sundance Wrote: +2 witnessing a corpse
+5 in the presence of a corpse*
+10 witnessing a cluwne
+100 witnessing a Floor cluwne
-5 witnessing a clown
-20 witnessing Santa
all have potential for badcode/extreme lag. what defines 'witnessing'/'in presence'? is it every single tick you get +2? once per minute?
for minute thing, would need entire loop thread dedicated to processing that stuff, and would be extremely expensive imo having to loop through view of all mobs to find thing via already expensive istype

(06-07-2019, 08:54 AM)Sundance Wrote: +10 if brought into critical health
+10 if starving or dehydrated
-10 Eating a painkiller if in red health/critical or is effected by pain
-10 Curing dehydration or starvation
potential for badcode/extreme lag. take the case of a player faced with incompent doctor. doctor heals them to above crit, then they fall back, repeat over and over. this would be +500 stress. unless you have a timer saying it only happens every minute (adds expensive load) this can easily fall apart.

(06-07-2019, 08:54 AM)Sundance Wrote: +10 a player dying in your presence.*
+10 witnessing a wizard/vampire/wraith/changeling cast an ability for the first time.
+15 witnessing a changeling eat a person.
+15 witnessing a werewolf for the first time.
+15 witnessing a wraith take form
+30 witnessing a changeling go abomination
+30 witnessing a revenant rise from the grave
-5 Initial sip of tea or coffee.
-5 seeing the clown make a mistake
-100 witnessing the clown die.
would all need event handlers attached to the relevant proc to search through viewers and increment. first time ones would be extra expensive, require var/bitfield flag on /mob

(06-07-2019, 08:54 AM)Sundance Wrote: -10 entering the escape shuttle
-20 Having over 5000 credits on your person
similar problem to medical shit above. what stops me from entering and exiting over and over, or going through cash stuff

(06-07-2019, 08:54 AM)Sundance Wrote: -10 Ingesting Fluoxetine. Addictive.*
-25 Ingesting Joy pill.*
similar to above, what stops me from making .001u CHEM pills, would require a multiplicative capped

(06-07-2019, 08:54 AM)Sundance Wrote: -5 eating a meal cooked by the chef or a drink made by a barman
imp. note: .creator var, maybe already via admin fingerprinting


RE: Reworking Motives (I’ve got the Joy edition) - Sundance - 11-05-2020

I'm bumping this thread as it contains some key points that I'd rather not repeat in the other thread Motives discussion thread as it's all self contained here.

Zewaka, you've raised some points from a coder standpoint that required review which I will cover. 

1. Stress causes feedback:

Hygiene is a dumb motive that shouldn't have rank importance as Hunger and Thirst. Bladder was removed at some point back as it was spammy but it was good that the toilets actually had some activity. Combine them.

----------
  • Hygiene should fall under Stress as described in the OP. Increased to +4 per dirtied item worn. This means someone who has a filthy everything (Hat, Mask, Gloves, Suit, Exo, Glasses, Ears) will have 28 Stress, although only really 4 of those items get dirty in a round.
  • Bladder is now back, under Stress. When you reach a certain point where you can *piss, you will:

    A) Receive a message that you should pee at 0 minutes. B) Your stress will increase at about +0.5/min over 10 minutes, at 5 minutes you will receive another prompt that you really should pee and C) At 10 minutes you piss yourself. You will receive +5 stress upon doing so, +10 stress altogether. D) You have potential to piss yourself if you have high stress!


  • Zewaka: Instead of +10 Stress occurring at Crit or at the Starving/Dehydrated, instead +10 Stress is applied per Ailment (Note: Starving/Dehydrated is an Ailment). This stops the problem of "Doctor heals them to above crit, then they fall back, repeat over and over" as the stress is removed once the ailment has been resolved. This is applied to missing limbs also, only at +5 instead.
  • Zewaka: Instead of being in the presence of a Corpse, let corpses affect you in this way: A) You receive 0.5 stress per 1 unit of Miasma in your system B) Touching or Examining a Human Corpse is +1 Stress (Sec, Det, Medical, Chaplain are immune from this).

  • Zewaka: All the other points regarding the "Witnessing" or "Initial" can be scrapped due to badcode potentials. Even stuff that i'd like to see, such as Witnessing someone die (great RP potential) can be gamed by someone running up to you and suicide/succumbing. That said, some unique interactions such as being ejected out of the cloner, or wraith doing a thing to YOU specifically, would still be cool to see.
[*]Withdrawing from a drug has +5 stress and is considered an ailment in that this is removed once you are free from your addiction or have sated it.



2. Stress alleviation feedback:

  • Zewaka: As Stress is applied to an ailment/missing limb (+10/+5) and fixing that is (-10/-5), I assume this would not cause too many issues?

  • Zewaka: Painkiller might be better to be work in a similar manner to atropine. If you are in crit or deep red (Below ~20) it heals stress over time. This will not apply if your stress is below 60

  • Zewaka: Similarly, Fluoxetine and Joy (stress chems) heals stress over time (while in system, like how medicine works) rather than initial intake, to stop gaming. Fluoxetine only works if stress is above 60, i.e. you are becoming Troubled, while Joy can be eaten any time, but like any DD product has a chance of horribly mutating you.

  •  All "drugs" heal stress while in the system. Tobacco does so, but at a extremely slow rate. Weed does better. Alcohol more so. The harder the drug, the greater the stress heal over time. They pale in comparison to Antidepressants such as Fluoxetine and Joy, but work at keeping the general stress down. Tea and Coffee are about as effective as tobacco. Be careful with the withdrawal!

  • Zewaka: Instead of being on the escape shuttle alleviating stress, let it be escaping on it? That would prevent gaming of someone walking in and out.

  •  As for the clown, I think it would be good if the activities the clown does to you can reduce stress in a minor way. Not sure how to recommend implementing this in a sound manner!

  • Zewaka: Finally, is eating food made by the chef or drink by the barman a runner for this? I'd even buff it up to -10 stress to encourage players visiting the bar.
[*]

----

Anyway, that's it for Stress, I'll cover Food & Drink later. What do people think regarding making Motives into a proper health system, and particular what do you think of Stress? Keep in mind the OP and changes in this post.

RE: Reworking Motives (I’ve got the Joy edition) - Kak0phony - 11-05-2020

I'd be welcome to it, this is a really well thought-out system

RE: Reworking Motives (I’ve got the Joy edition) - Mordent - 11-05-2020

Many people already don't take care of their motives until they're dropping a lot of their clicks, I massively disagree with motives that once past a certain threshold require more extreme (medical) fixes. I'm fine with certain treatments being able to "jumpstart" someone out of an ailment, but if they're the only way to get rid of the ailment then things are going to get somewhat ugly real quick when none of the treatments prescribed are easily available outside of medbay.

Being unable to eat food/drink water to fix hunger/dehydration is very counter intuitive. While it might be "real" in some cases, never let reality get in the way of gameplay. If I have a status effect called "Starving", I'm going to be wondering why I can't fix it with food.

Stress as described is objectively lethal (all damage having a chance to cause cardiac arrest, which is basically lethal if not near medical staff) if not catered for and could rack up very quickly. An explosion that takes off one of your limbs and puts you into crit could tack on 20 stress with no real warning, and then slipping in your own blood adds more on top of that (for slipping, and also for now dirtying your clothes). Once you're in crit you're taking oxy damage with would now have a chance of applying cardiac arrest.

This seems un-fun and with a consequence of "death". Back when reaching zero on your motives was lethal, so many people on the RP server died to them due to not really caring. I do not think that any of these should have "death" as a consequence. Big negative debuffs? Sure. Just take death off the table.

RE: Reworking Motives (I’ve got the Joy edition) - Leeanei - 11-05-2020

Bladder was a godawful motive because it worked against RP. Nobody RPs in the toilets(I hope) and peeing yourself at a bad time ruined many an antag's final monologue/speech/etcetera that killed drama in what should have been a dramatic moment. Just felt bad for everyone involved.

RE: Reworking Motives (I’ve got the Joy edition) - Sundance - 11-05-2020

(11-05-2020, 01:59 PM)Mordent Wrote: I massively disagree with motives that once past a certain threshold require more extreme (medical) fixes. I'm fine with certain treatments being able to "jumpstart" someone out of an ailment, but if they're the only way to get rid of the ailment then things are going to get somewhat ugly real quick when none of the treatments prescribed are easily available outside of medbay.

Being unable to eat food/drink water to fix hunger/dehydration is very counter intuitive. While it might be "real" in some cases, never let reality get in the way of gameplay. If I have a status effect called "Starving", I'm going to be wondering why I can't fix it with food.

The intent was to effectively add a "crit" status to motives, in that they required a separate medicine other than what was based off the source to cure the ailment.  Nutrients, Saline and Halo are the epis of the motives world so to speak, it wasn't much to do with reality but rather uniformity with current design.

In my defense, there is also cures outside of medbay, with DD Vitamins and Isotonic Drink and botany alternatives.

That said, I agree that it appears counter intuitive, and could do with a tweak (starting with calling starving -> malnourished). I'mma think on that.

Mordent Wrote:Stress as described is objectively lethal - An explosion that takes off one of your limbs and puts you into crit could tack on 20 stress with no real warning, and then slipping in your own blood adds more on top of that (for slipping, and also for now dirtying your clothes). Once you're in crit you're taking oxy damage with would now have a chance of applying cardiac arrest.

I do not think that any of these should have "death" as a consequence. Big negative debuffs? Sure. Just take death off the table.

Actually, the problem with Stress as a concept right now is that there isn't enough stress things to make people actually reach the 80 mark, or I'm being to lenient on the grading. While stress isn't fixed as easy as eating a burger, there's lots of outlets for decreasing stress. 

We'll take your example. Let's say you're at currently 40 stress. How you got to that, idk, you've been in some real shady shit. Explosion. Results: 1 lost limb, 1 cardiac arrest, 1 slippage, 3-4 dirty clothes items. 
Added, that's +5 +10 +2 +16 + 40 = 73 stress. So even with a stressful start, you still come out teetering on the edge, but ok. 

But again, I agree with your final sentiment that adding death as the final consequence may be a bit too heavy handed and could be dialed back a notch. I did not like the random death that occured in the past and I can see why adding a much slower ramping death isn't much better.