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+--- Thread: Townhall meeting this weekend! (/showthread.php?tid=13966)
RE: Townhall meeting this weekend! - Camryn - 02-26-2020
Does my question have to be the same as the one I posted in here?
I feel as though they've been answered.
Edit: please don't count this as a question :shelterfrog:
RE: Townhall meeting this weekend! - polivilas - 02-26-2020
Hoping this is not too personal but... What REALLY happened with Cirr? What exactly got him booted? From what I heard he essentially went from coder to 'kicked out with no coming back anytime soon' in 2 hours flat, but not much past that.
RE: Townhall meeting this weekend! - popecrunch - 02-26-2020
I'll answer that in here after the townhall, since i'm sure it'll come up, and if it doesn't, i'll make it come up.
RE: Townhall meeting this weekend! - Camryn - 02-26-2020
How are we going to care for the wellbeing of our admins to prevent burnout in the future?
RE: Townhall meeting this weekend! - Ravenmeister - 02-26-2020
(02-26-2020, 04:49 PM)Camryn Wrote: How are we going to care for the wellbeing of our admins to prevent burnout in the future?
I... don't know there's a simple answer for that. Like, fuck, I know I'm new here, and, there's a fucking pointed reason I'm getting involved on this point in this thread rather then any prior points, but, there's... no simple answers for that, because burnout isn't a simple thing to prevent. Like... shit, from someone who is a chronically burnt out person? I don't know there's anything someone *can* do to prevent it in me. I know lots of fucking people have tried lots of fucking things, from internal to places and things, to external to places and things I've cared about, but... in the end, burnout happened all the fucking same. I don't think it's pointless, mind, rather the opposite, I just don't think a simple answer for that can be expected or given on short notice. My two cents, from someone who cares about you fucking absurd fools, even when you are at each others throats at the moment.
RE: Townhall meeting this weekend! - DyssalC - 02-26-2020
Another question for the townhall then.
Looking over various quotes from both Azungar and Wonk, parts of their posts within this Townhall thread, both seem to be saying, indirectly or directly, that there exist what they believe to be toxic elements within the admin team that are creating this atmosphere that they found to be too much to bear. I also believe that this must be true based on Spy's departure, as I only really ever saw three people PUBLICLY refer to him as alt-right or a nazi, with the majority of the PUBLIC reaction being to sit on this information and wait for an announcement of some sort. This leads me to believe that the aggressive pressuring that Azungar and Wonk say existed within the admin team is also what lead to Spy, and possibly the other staff, leaving. If this is not true, disregard what I ask next.
If this is true, and the wizard team wishes to turn its attention to dispute management in some way, then what are the plans for dealing with this/these individual/individuals? I find it very difficult to believe that all of the admins that had the same issue, whether it be just Azungar, Wonk, and Spy, or more of the staff that has departed, would be wrong, or simply blowing this situation out of proportion and overreacting, seeing as many of them were long-term members of the community, if not here from the start then here for longer than most. So with that being the case, what will the course of action be? I don't expect a fully detailed list of what might be done, I know that publicly humiliating or demonizing these people would be wrong, but I just want to know if the new dispute management system will be including disciplinary actions for those involved in this recent occurrence.
RE: Townhall meeting this weekend! - Sundance - 02-27-2020
(02-26-2020, 02:58 PM)Zamujasa Wrote:(02-26-2020, 01:58 PM)Sundance Wrote: Its another tragedy altogether that we judge ones actions (or lack thereof) as a sum of their parts. To ignore that people are transient beings capable of change and rational thought. That fundamental discussion withers and bears no fruit and people resort to the tribalism of "with us or against".
Nobody is ignoring that, though???
I'm not going to tit for tat here because I don't know the full picture - it would be presumptuous of me to do so.
But you misunderstand when you say nobody was ignoring it, with "it" being open and frank discussion with clear goals at resolution - hence my following question underneath.
Apologies if this comes across as crass, but if it's true that "nobody is (or more accurately - was) ignoring" the elephant in the room, then why the departure of several admins? Clearly it was not nipped in the bud and goodwill was completely eroded by the time actual serious discussion took place.
Keep in mind when I say "ignoring", I am not putting onus on any individual here.
I've nothing more to add, however i'll reiterate that i'd like to see my query answered (and by extension, Frank's).
RE: Townhall meeting this weekend! - Azungar - 02-27-2020
Not a question, but I do offer you some ideas that could be forged into actual solutions:
1) Wizards in their current form are sadly obsolete and useless. The system is too slow, there are too many of you, some of you are extremely out of touch with the game and are just sitting there for no good reason. Some of you are also neutral, to the point where there is no point in having you if your votes are there to only to abstain or to never propose ideas/take a stance on matters. Demote every wizard to admin/coder. Then allow every single coder/admin who wishes to participate in big decisions by giving them a new role that allows them to see a specific channel that is used to discuss those propositions. This allows everyone a chance to participate (at least those who want to) and those who wish to stay out, can stay out. This also allows current wizards still to be part of the decision making machine, if they still want to. Topics that can be put forward by anyone are the following ones: hiring a new admin, promoting an existing admin (maybe have Primary Administrator require less positive votes then coder? I don't care about Shit Guy.), major overhaul/change to a game mechanic. (We haven't had many of these in a while, but maybe some of you remember the old days when we got new departments or overhauled them.)
Votes should last for 3-7 days as their content is something that people can wait for and don't require immediate reaction. Nobody is going to lose their mind over someone not getting hired for a few more days. The votes would also require a varying degree of majority to pass. Votes should be also something that you can recreate after a set time (that should be discussed) has passed.
2) We must acknowledge that there are situations where swift actions are required. The wizard system has displayed itself to be too slow, too ineffective and honestly extremely bad at renewing itself as time moves on. The new "wizards", that I am going to be calling "judges" because I am biased, would be people who wish to take the added stress and responsibility of monitoring admins in their behavior in admin chat, in admin helps, their general interaction with the community. There would be a rather small amount of these people (I'm thinking 4, but that is open for discussion as long as it's an uneven amount and not nearly as many wizards as we have right now) + Wire who should never rotate out, due to him being the server host. That is if he wishes to take such additional responsibility on his shoulders. These people can give out warnings. These warnings should be posted in the specific section of the admin forums (that is visible to all admins), so they can be archived and nobody can deny that they have given a warning or received one. If the situation requires it, they can also choose to revoke someone's admin rights temporarily (up to a few days or a week? Mainly thinking this would be an emergency method to fight someone abusing their admin rights.) They also have the capability to call votes on demotions and firings if enough warnings and/or a pressing enough reason has been given. These people would also be responsible for at least attempting to aid in trying to resolve internal conflicts within the admins, without having to resort to any sort of punishment. They should be considered as the HR representatives of the admins that can be openly told about issues that people have and they would attempt to resolve them. If the issue is not solved through just talking, it could be made public to the rest of the admins.
These people would have to be carefully picked through a vote, as these people need to enjoy the trust of the majority of admins that they will do their job reasonably and fairly. All changes to judges and their abilities are done through normal admin voting, so they can't give themself any additional power as their vote is equal to that of an admin in matters of promotion/hiring. But they are the only few select individuals who are able to vote on punishments and demotions.
To provide a more fair solution for everyone, anyone who receives a warning or a punishment by one of the judges is allowed to appeal it within X amount of days after the punishment has been delivered. This appeal would be handled by ADMINS, and they would get the final say in if they think the judge has acted fairly and in the good interest of the server. Admins could agree with the punishment, remove it completely or choose to vote on altering it to be less severe. There is also an option that if the judge is extremely out of line and the majority of the people agree that they have stepped out of the line, they could lose their position within the same vote if it passes.
Warnings could decay and not be in effect anymore, to promote an environment where people don't need to be constantly worried about something that they have done in the past. After all, even with player notes, we are more forgiving of things that have happened in the past and this should be extended to admins as well.
Being judge is not a permanent position and would have to be decided, what is a long enough "term" for them so we don't have to be constantly voting but yet can also expect these people not to burn themself out as the position is a heavy burden, rather than a fun job.
I'd be open to considering how much of the punishments/warnings should be told about to the players. It could be kept completely within admin circles or we could make a post where all punishments/warnings are announced in a less descriptive method. "Azungar has received a warning for banning Pubbie West unreasonably." This system would also extend into admin complaints as those would be investigated by the judges.
These are just framework suggestions that would need to be discussed across every admin who is interested in participating in the discussion.
3) The players asked for clearer communication and I think we should be striving towards that. A few months ago Fire and I had the idea of a museum of "WIP" ideas on Centcom but that never came to be due to Centcom being made off-limit, more or less. I think we should assign a person who would be willing to write a bi-weekly update post (akin to that of State of the Goonion) which would have some sneak peeks (if people want to give you those) or just random statements of how the admin team has been feeling lately or how they have been doing.
This would be a volunteer position, so we would just have to figure out who would want to volunteer for it. Flourish already runs the community contests, so it shouldn't be too much of a hassle to find someone who has interested in doing such. Honestly, it could also be a player who would get access to more sensitive information.
RE: Townhall meeting this weekend! - OMJ - 02-27-2020
this is a spaceman game and should be treated as such. identity politics should not be acknowledged. goon is one of the most tolerant places on the internet, period. we do not have to keep acknowledging it.
forgot how to quote but I agree with what wonk said- "A request to remain non-political, or an attempt to remove political stances, has lumped the poster in with the right. They have now been called morally abhorrent - if not directly, the insinuation is very clear that they will become morally abhorrent if they do not change their mind and reply in a way that makes them more agreeable to the person doing the accusing.".
this is a spaceman game. it's okay to be non political.
games are escapes from reality. why bring reality in? part of why I've played for so long is because the rest of the world disappears when i'm playing the spaceman game.
also- this should not become an opportunity to have admins be transparent with votes/etc/. these things should stay secret. it is not something the players should meddle in or be privy to. It isn't our business to see and critique hard work that is done voluntarily without pay.
double post- the gravity of wanting to keep things non political has led to some absurd losses. None of this was worth it. It's very, very disappointing. The losses of staff were colossal.
Over fucking what?
How much more equal can we be on a spaceman game? On Goonstation at that?
Thank god I was never called up to be an admin. This seems totally fucking miserable to voluntarily put yourself through/
RE: Townhall meeting this weekend! - Zamujasa - 02-27-2020
(02-27-2020, 06:51 AM)Sundance Wrote: Apologies if this comes across as crass, but if it's true that "nobody is (or more accurately - was) ignoring" the elephant in the room, then why the departure of several admins? Clearly it was not nipped in the bud and goodwill was completely eroded by the time actual serious discussion took place.
"People leaving" and "ignoring possibility of change/thought" have nothing to do with one another. If you dislike a situation, you can believe the situation can change, but you have zero obligation to stay in that situation.
If someone turns the AC in a room up to 85 degrees and it makes you uncomfortable, you can ask them to turn it down, or decide they'll eventually come around to having more mild preferences. But there is no reason why you have to stay there while it's uncomfortable. That does not make sense.
Quote:this is a spaceman game and should be treated as such. identity politics should not be acknowledged. goon is one of the most tolerant places on the internet, period. we do not have to keep acknowledging it.
Please point to areas where identity politics have been acknowledged in-game.
RE: Townhall meeting this weekend! - popecrunch - 02-27-2020
Not so friendly reminder: This thread is intended to let people ask questions that they want to make sure get a well-researched response, or if they're not sure if they'll be able to make it to the town hall. Since y'all didn't take the hint the first time, new thread rule: No more discussion in this thread, questions only. Non-questions in this thread will be deleted, take it to another thread if you really wanna discuss things, take it to PM if you can't discuss things in another thread without getting uncivil.
The only reason I'm waiting to talk about the Cirr situation or some more prickly topics until after the town hall is that, simply put, i personally don't have literally all the answers. I don't want to give you half an answer or an answer based on inaccurate assumptions. I've got a pretty good idea of what happened, but it's of course based on my own assumptions and perspective, and it would be unfair for me to present you with an answer claiming to be The Official Word that I wasn't pretty sure wasn't colored by my own assumptions and perspective. I've already talked in Discord about my personal take on what happened with the cirr situation, feel absolutely free to ping me there if you missed it or want to hear it again, or invite me into literally any other thread if you want it specifically on the forums. This thread is for questions.
fun fact: if you read the text that said 'don't use this thread for anything that isn't a question' and then post saying 'noted, pope' and then proceed to try to use the thread for something that isn't a question, you still get your post deleted
RE: Townhall meeting this weekend! - KikiMofo - 02-28-2020
Serious question, What is Townhall? I've never heard of it before. I assume its like a meeting or something but what does it entail?
RE: Townhall meeting this weekend! - popecrunch - 02-28-2020
Yeah, just a bunch of people asking a bunch of questions. I talked about the logistics of it on the last page i think, i'll quote it here so you don't have to wade through arguments to find it.
(02-26-2020, 03:32 PM)popecrunch Wrote: Okay so TOWN HALL STRUCTURE HERE'S HOW IT'S GOING DOWN.
1) I have created a channel in discord called questions-channel. You can't see it yet. I have gone through this thread and posted in that channel a line that is '$name: link to their post' for every post in this thread that appeared to be a question FOR, not ABOUT, the town hall. Not included in those posts are answers, side discussions, admins, the argument from a page ago that we are still not talking about in this thread for now, basically anything that didn't appear to be a question for the townhall. If your question was answered, I still included it in the list. Why does this matter? Well,
2) When the town hall starts, I will open a different channel for the town hall to take place in. Administrators will be able to speak in it. I will lay down the ground rules for the town hall that are, well, basically what you are reading right now. If you have a question to ask in the town hall, post it in the questions-channel. DO NOT USE THE QUESTIONS CHANNEL FOR DISCUSSION. SLOW MODE WILL BE TURNED ON. THE QUESTIONS CHANNEL IS SOLELY TO ASK QUESTIONS SO WE KNOW WHO TO GIVE THE TALKING STICK ROLE TO. What's the talking stick role? Well,
3) Starting with Camryn, who asked the first question in the thread, then going down the list of questions in the thread (via those posts), then to people who post questions in the question channel, each person will get the talking-stick role. They will be able to ask their first question. Once me or another admin posts something that is intended to be an answer, a five minute timer starts. The person who has the talking stick then has five minutes to ask followup questions, different questions, whatever's on their mind. After those five minutes have passed, the talking-stick role will pass to the next person in line. The person with the talking-stick role can choose to pass it on to the next person. It can also be taken away if they break the rules of the town hall. We will continue until either there are no more questions, or no more admins remain who have the time to participate. I, personally, have carved out two hours definitely (modulo RL necessities) and will probably be able to stay another hour, maybe two. Wait, what were those rules you mentioned, pope? Well,
4) No personal attacks. I mean it. Zero tolerance here. Don't call anybody a fascist or a reactionary. I MEAN IT. do NOT test me on this.
5) It is completely okay to ask a question that takes a minute or so of research - that's why the five minute timer starts only after the first response. However, if your question is really complicated or otherwise is gonna take A While, we reserve the right to tell you we'll get back to you within a reasonable amount of time (day or so if it's super complicated or requires input from someone who's difficult to nail down). You can still use the rest of your time for other questions if you want.
6) We will not be accepting anonymous questions. If you really, really don't want your name attached to your question for whatever reason, you are entirely free to ask someone else to ask it on your behalf.
7) You might get answers you do not like, or do not consider answers. Sorry. That doesn't mean it wasn't answered. We will do our very best to answer all questions completely honestly to the best of our ability to do so. Please understand we're humans.
8) Absolutely no shitposting. If you're shitposting, you lose the talking stick and have to get back in line with a new question in question-channel. If you do it again, you'll be skipped for the rest of the meeting. Don't test me on this either.
With that out of the way, I wanted to post some links to resources that you might find useful if you're in a crisis. We absolutely understand that we all love this community, and something we love being in a little tumult can be really, really upsetting. Here is a list of some crisis resources that should cover almost all countries:
Quote:Self-harm crisis lines:
- US/Canada: National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 800/273-8255 https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
- UK: Samaritans Hotline 116 123 https://www.samaritans.org/ (Also 212/673-3000, they WILL help people not from the UK. Note that I have no data one way or the other about whether they handle LGBTQIA+ issues gracefully - they claim to, and I haven't heard otherwise, but.)
- Rest of Europe: varies, look at https://www.iasp.info/resources/Crisis_Centres/Europe/
- Everywhere else: http://www.suicide.org/international-sui...lines.html
- Text / SMS based crisis counseling - if you're in the US, text HELP to 741741. If you're in Canada, text HELP to 686868, and if you're in the UK, text HELP to 85258. Operated by Crisis Text Line at https://www.crisistextline.org/ , and that URL will also provide text codes for some other countries as well. Contacts are anonymized (the person you text with cannot see your phone number), and at least in the US with a Verizon, Sprint, T-Mobile, or AT&T phone, it won't even appear on the billing history (so if your billing details are seen by someone else, they won't even know you reached out.) Other providers, or those providers in other countries, might or might not work that way - it's the intent, but requires special handling which might or might not be possible in other countries.
If you have need of a resource not listed here, ask me, or ask someone else to ask me if you're nervous, and I will drop everything else and do my best to find help. There are more resources to be found in the stickied thread here. https://forum.ss13.co/showthread.php?tid=13670
RE: Townhall meeting this weekend! - MrMagolor - 02-28-2020
With Keelin gone, will anyone take over projects such as Ritual Chalk or HeadSurgeon?
RE: Townhall meeting this weekend! - phyvo - 02-29-2020
Question: What if I leave a question here but can't be present for the town hall, or if I ask questions which I'd be happy to get answered at a later date?
Whatever the case, these are questions I am personally most interested in as a player. Not that I don't care about the social structure that needs fixing or whatever, but I have very little I can ask concerning that.
Have you all considered looking at Real Life forms of volunteer communities (I keep on thinking of religious examples, churches/synagogues/mosques whatever, but I'm sure there's more) for ideas on structure and self-regulation?
How are we going to decide what to work on in the game and keep a balance between larger and smaller projects?
How are we going to decide on the direction of said projects, and will there be an easy place to communicate all that to potential volunteers?
Can we get a list of suggestions from the suggestion forums that the Game Directors (whoever they are, whatever we call them) would love volunteer coders to code?
Can we possibly keep the public code more up to date so that it is easier to keep on contributing, and what are the plans surrounding that?
Nuke mode aside, what is our goal for "balance"? Keeping the game fresh, so people are not eternally complaining about csaber nerds, or what?
Also, I have offered to work on reskinning flock. When or how might the decision be made on that? And how is flock "incomplete", anyway, and what would make it "complete"?