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+--- Thread: Discussion Thread: direct commits of balance changes without player input (/showthread.php?tid=16344)
RE: Discussion Thread: direct commits of balance changes without player input - Theunsolved-puzzle - 06-03-2021
(06-03-2021, 06:09 PM)Lord Birb Wrote: chemistry has been massively unbalanced for years. any chemistry nerfs are 100% justified.
Your right that they are unbalanced, many things in goon are. However a removal of features isn't a nerf, its a removal of features plain and simple.
RE: Discussion Thread: direct commits of balance changes without player input - Carbadox - 06-04-2021
When there's a specific person out there that's making guides on how to most effectively greif and abuse unbalanced features and then other people start following said guides, then I can hardly said the Dev response is unreasonable or knee jerk when it's something that's negatively impacting players enjoying the game.
RE: Discussion Thread: direct commits of balance changes without player input - UrsulaMejor - 06-04-2021
Ss13 is an incredibly complex game and trying to balance the emergent gameplay that comes from the interaction between elements has become full time work for some of our developers.
Sometimes, things aren't problems until they're discovered, and for certain gameplay elements the constant struggle to patch the sinking ship was starting to intrude on time better spent on other projects. Aerosol and Nitro are examples of these.
I understand that you're disappointed that things are changing, but we are a volunteer team and when things require constant maintenance we have to be respectful of our own time
RE: Discussion Thread: direct commits of balance changes without player input - Theunsolved-puzzle - 06-04-2021
It isn't the fact that there's change that disappoints me, its the way in which its handled, nitro and aerosol being gutted completely for example (I use these two because they are the strongest examples in my mind) was the wrong step to take in the situation, I agree they were a bit unbalanced, but I don't believe that the right move was to remove them entirely instead of changing the recipe, or giving them a temporary suspension until a solution could be thought out and up ESPECIALLY when these changes were made without player feedback. I hope I've made my thoughts clear by this point, it isn't change I dislike, its the lack of community feedback and the lack of looking for alternative solutions, instead going straight for a gutting of the system(s) in question.
RE: Discussion Thread: direct commits of balance changes without player input - UrsulaMejor - 06-04-2021
(06-04-2021, 10:02 AM)Theunsolved-puzzle Wrote: I hope I've made my thoughts clear by this point, it isn't change I dislike, its the lack of community feedback and the lack of looking for alternative solutions, instead going straight for a gutting of the system(s) in question.
alternative solutions have been under consideration for years, and at least one alternative (the new smoke fluids) has already been implemented. For.nitro, which is essentially just an incredibly broken (as in literally broken, the code was a huge headache that needed constant duct taping) explosive, there have always been alternatives (such as potwater, black powder, etc etc). Other things, like changing the aerosol recipe, were also tried.
The idea that community feedback wasn't considered is also not true. these changes are the direct result of bad experiences that have been felt by the community for literal years, and the developers making an evaluation of what to do about it.
RE: Discussion Thread: direct commits of balance changes without player input - Theunsolved-puzzle - 06-04-2021
when I said alternative I meant alternative ways to address the problem, not alternative systems, fair point for the alternatives existing, but my point remains the same.
RE: Discussion Thread: direct commits of balance changes without player input - cyberTripping - 06-04-2021
(06-04-2021, 11:00 AM)Theunsolved-puzzle Wrote: when I said alternative I meant alternative ways to address the problem, not alternative systems, fair point for the alternatives existing, but my point remains the same.
if old smoke powder (aerosol propellant) was just directly reworked into new smoke powder back when newsmoke was made, which im sure was considered by some, wouldn't that be the alternative solution you were looking for? maintaining the functional uses of creating clouds of smoke but using fresher, more balanced mechanics?
the weird in-between area of oldsmoke and newsmoke simultaneously existing in the code is incidental to this, in my view. Smoke WAS reworked, they just kept the old variant around for one reason or another. To this end, smoke was never removed: it still exists just fine, in its reworked form.
RE: Discussion Thread: direct commits of balance changes without player input - aft2001 - 06-04-2021
I would also like to note that a lot of discussions seem to happen on Discord, where records of said discussions aren't really indexed/catalogued and require deliberate searching to find, unlike the forums. In-game mediums also have a lot of discussion (e.g salty deadchat, OOC discussions/debates, people arguing over this stuff on the common radio, etc.) which is very much so not able to be looked back at without access to round logs. I'd imagine that there is a long history of all sorts of discussions regarding the tiniest of tweaks to the grandest of balance issues, but much of that is only visible to those who participated in those discussions, which are just a handful of people at a time.
RE: Discussion Thread: direct commits of balance changes without player input - Theunsolved-puzzle - 06-04-2021
(06-04-2021, 11:48 AM)cyberTripping Wrote: if old smoke powder (aerosol propellant) was just directly reworked into new smoke powder back when newsmoke was made, which im sure was considered by some, wouldn't that be the alternative solution you were looking for? maintaining the functional uses of creating clouds of smoke but using fresher, more balanced mechanics?
the weird in-between area of oldsmoke and newsmoke simultaneously existing in the code is incidental to this, in my view. Smoke WAS reworked, they just kept the old variant around for one reason or another. To this end, smoke was never removed: it still exists just fine, in its reworked form.
I think they could have done something else with it to differentiate the two instead of just moving to smoke powder, maybe make it so aerosol cant penetrate skin but can still apply itself to surfaces, something along those lines to make them alternatives to one another instead of just moving to the smoke powder.
RE: Discussion Thread: direct commits of balance changes without player input - UrsulaMejor - 06-04-2021
Smoke powder WAS intended as a fix to aerosol. aerosol used to just be called... smoke powder. Aerosol stuck around for a bit because it filled a unique niche, but as it turns out, that unique niche kindof sucks.
it took a while to get there, but new smoke has now fully replaced oldsmoke. rip.
RE: Discussion Thread: direct commits of balance changes without player input - Theunsolved-puzzle - 06-04-2021
(06-04-2021, 01:38 PM)UrsulaMejor Wrote: Smoke powder WAS intended as a fix to aerosol. aerosol used to just be called... smoke powder. Aerosol stuck around for a bit because it filled a unique niche, but as it turns out, that unique niche kindof sucks.
it took a while to get there, but new smoke has now fully replaced oldsmoke. rip.
that's fair, but I think they could have keep it in a way that allows for its niche to still be used, it defiantly should have been nerfed, but I think it would have been better to differentiate it rather than retire it.
RE: Discussion Thread: direct commits of balance changes without player input - Mouse - 06-04-2021
(06-04-2021, 02:14 AM)Carbadox Wrote: When there's a specific person out there that's making guides on how to most effectively greif and abuse unbalanced features and then other people start following said guides, then I can hardly said the Dev response is unreasonable or knee jerk when it's something that's negatively impacting players enjoying the game.
Wait is that why people are suddenly spamming the same obnoxious things that have existed for ages? Some jackass is telling them how to do it?
RE: Discussion Thread: direct commits of balance changes without player input - Froggit_Dogget - 06-04-2021
(06-04-2021, 02:33 PM)Mouse Wrote:(06-04-2021, 02:14 AM)Carbadox Wrote: When there's a specific person out there that's making guides on how to most effectively greif and abuse unbalanced features and then other people start following said guides, then I can hardly said the Dev response is unreasonable or knee jerk when it's something that's negatively impacting players enjoying the game.
Wait is that why people are suddenly spamming the same obnoxious things that have existed for ages? Some jackass is telling them how to do it?
yes some jackass is making tutorials on every secret chem / obnoxious thing in the game.
RE: Discussion Thread: direct commits of balance changes without player input - Technature - 06-04-2021
Holy shit, is that why we've been losing so many nice things?
God, I fucking hate the internet.
RE: Discussion Thread: direct commits of balance changes without player input - Lady Birb - 06-04-2021
(06-04-2021, 02:14 AM)Carbadox Wrote: When there's a specific person out there that's making guides on how to most effectively greif and abuse unbalanced features and then other people start following said guides, then I can hardly said the Dev response is unreasonable or knee jerk when it's something that's negatively impacting players enjoying the game.
admins do i have permission to ddos them?
(for legal reasons this is a joke)