(02-26-2020, 08:30 AM)Azungar Wrote:

(02-26-2020, 07:06 AM)popecrunch Wrote:

(02-25-2020, 06:03 AM)Azungar Wrote: A lot of people left when Goon decided to adapt to be more politically correct. I personally feel like this is just a continuation of that story, with the people who no longer wish to see that development is wanting to bow out. It's blatantly obvious that Goon doesn't mind catering to certain groups, which is fine but should perhaps be more directly stated. I personally don't think Goon has been a politically neutral ground for a while now, with certain people choosing to treat it as a playground for their political motives instead of a community created a video game. Maybe that's just the natural development of things.

On second thought, this is worth replying to specifically.

I think there's a massive disconnect between your perceptions of community and the perceptions of racial/ethnic/gender/sexual/etc minorities.  As near as I can tell, and I could be very wrong here and invite clarification, your idea of 'neutral ground' is a space where your beliefs and assumptions aren't challenged without cause.  Which sounds fine in a vacuum.  The 'neutral ground' I have spent my entire administrative career in this community trying to achieve is a space where nobody's personhood is challenged.  To someone in your position, 'don't ridicule certain things' is political correctness and one of those annoying things you have to agree to so you don't get grumped at by someone with no real sense of humor.  To a member of one of those aforementioned minorities, 'don't ridicule certain things' is a shield that gives them a space where they can trust they won't be belittled because of who they ARE.  Make fun of someone all dang day for stupid things they do, but the minute you start ridiculing someone because of who they are, that's the point at which I'm gonna have something to say about it.  Just as nobody gets to pick their nation of origin or skin color, nobody gets to pick what sexual or gender identity they land on, or even whether or not theirs is concrete and not changing over time.  Think of that pesky 'political correctness' as the natural conclusion of the no slurs rule we instilled long ago.  No Slurs Part Two: The Secret Of The Ooze.

If that's a dealbreaker for someone, if they have no interest in engaging with a community where nobody's personhood is challenged, then I wish them every happiness in finding someplace else to call home.  This space will not be that home, for as long as I have anything to say about it.

There most definitely is no disconnect between how I perceive the community and racial/ethnic/gender/etc. minorities. I think it's pretty ridiculous to even suggest that those can even be seen apart as the latter group makes what is considered to be the 'the community'. And actually, my perception of the neutral ground is quite literally a space where beliefs and assumptions are kept to an absolute minimum as not to offend or affect anyone. Not only does it sound fine in a vacuum, but it would also work fine in the application if only this was someone genuinely wishing to genuinely not be challenged. Raising awareness that a certain group of people is being catered by the server is not challenging someone's personhood. Questioning if tokenism for any political/religious/ideological view is the way we wish to steer the server into is not also challenging someone's personhood. Pointing out that if certain individuals have been given the green light to personalize the in-game content with a part of themself then everyone else is free to do so as well. Especially if you are advocating for a stance where nobody's personhood is challenged, that means that you can't pick and choose. 

Also, I must have missed the point where anyone was being ridiculed due to their gender/nationality/race/sexual orientation. Last time I checked, the server had a ruleset against bigotry, slurs, and general hate speech, not a ruleset against hate speech towards particular nationality/gender/race/sexual orientation. Just because certain people (you included) have decided to make it their agenda to push and promote a certain community within this server (The LGBTQ+ community) doesn't exactly mean that you can push past the set rules of the server and just pick and choose on what is allowed and what is not without a consensus. So what is exactly the issue with that, a server ruleset that has not been updated to reflect the ideals of the server or a very loud minority within the server that is pushing their views and beliefs onto everyone?

 I don't think anyone of the older Goon guard or from the players has ever complained that removal of slurs was bad it was probably one of the better changes that have occurred to this blasted place. But I don't think this "pesky political correctness" is the natural conclusion of that. Or maybe I am wrong and it is, but it's not a question that neither you or I can decide for everyone who hops on our server. It is genuinely a thing that would require a server-wide vote on being accepted unless you prefer to do what was previously done, and just presume that everyone is fine with instilling political correctness within the server. I don't grasp at what point political correctness was assigned to be a necessary step of someone feeling welcome to play on the server or a part of them feeling equal to everyone else. If anything, allowing that to be widely used on the server just promotes further crowbarring for more rights through 'privileges'.

Also, if you wish to take the responsibility of creating this wonderful space where nobody's personhood is challenged, you'll wish to take the responsibility of sowing this minefield that lays between the people who genuinely have no interest in gender/sexual orientation/politics and the people who consider that to be something so vital about them, that they just can't push it in a community that is about spacemen and farting.  I've yet to hear from anyone that they felt like they were not treated equally in our community. And yet this minefield prevents healthy and needed discussion on how the actual in-game content should be handled. This necessary and healthy discussion also prevents other discussions with these people as they are instantly ready to take up arms if there is as much as a minor disagreement with them. Even within my short year of being an admin, I could have gathered so many separate incidents where stuff was shoehorned into gender/identity politics even though the question at hand had nothing to do with it.

It's not a dealbreaker for me that there is a suggestion of political correctness being used on the server. What is a dealbreaker for me is people like you who think that they can just force it on everyone without actually consulting the people who it affects. I don't think either of us knows if you are a majority or a minority in this case and as such, I genuinely think that is a thing that would require a server vote on how political/ideological agenda should be handled within the game. It's a very fresh phenomenon on the server as in the past, things have been kept very much in line with the flavor of the 1980's spaceman game. 

I'd be genuinely interested in hearing what the actual community thinks about this.

(02-26-2020, 11:34 AM)Wonkmin Wrote: Sorry, Flourish: I have no plans to attend the town hall but it is very important that people understand the decision that those of us who chose to leave made. Please do not attempt to shut that down.

edit: and it would have been super nice if people felt they were able to say "okay, that's bad, sorry that happened Wonk" without it being further shut down too - though I am sure with the current intent on insinuating I'm a Nazi (both on Twitter and now here in this thread - yay!) that the number of people keen to do that would be 0.

(02-26-2020, 09:54 AM)saccharineChampion Wrote:

(02-26-2020, 09:29 AM)Camryn Wrote: That's how mentor chat works. We socialize in public and we use the mentor channel specifically to handle mentorhelps. We get grumped at if we use it for anything else.

A lot of socialization occurs in mentorchat as well - I've personally even experienced times of socialization where midway through we realized a particular person wasn't a mentor yet and couldn't participate. I've also not once, in all the times I have socialized in mentor channel, been grumped at or seen anybody get grumped at for doing non-mentorhelp-handling activities.

(02-26-2020, 11:00 AM)Wonkmin Wrote: Your reaction is kneejerk and over the top - I would use the word hysterical but I believe that has now become a gendered term and honestly have no desire to offend anyone. 

Quote:... was generally rounded on by some and turned into accusations of white supremacy. We saw that with Zamu's twitter posts.

(02-26-2020, 01:28 PM)UrsulaMejor Wrote: 1) By and large, admin and wizard votes are held completely secretly. we are rarely, if ever, informed of what is being voted on, and usually we don't even get the results of that vote if the results weren't unanimous.

will any of those procedures get "declassified" in the future? I'm thinking a quarterly review of what votes were held and what the results were, with any identifying information stripped out. I feel like we don't really get an understanding of what wizards *do*, and so it's difficult to gauge whether they're doing it effectively.

2) because of the nature of certain topics, it doesn't make sense to be 100% transparent on all admin matters. it's hard to trust that the system is working when nobody has eyes on it, and it's also hard to get an idea for if the community's voices are being heard. do we have a plan for how we can "audit" the official goings on to make sure things don't fester in the dark, going unaddressed?

(02-26-2020, 01:58 PM)Sundance Wrote: Its another tragedy altogether that we judge ones actions (or lack thereof) as a sum of their parts. To ignore that people are transient beings capable of change and rational thought. That fundamental discussion withers and bears no fruit and people resort to the tribalism of "with us or against".

(02-26-2020, 01:58 PM)Sundance Wrote: I'll say this first - it's a tragedy that something so simple, so bipartisan as having an all inclusive environment is one so politically charged that the need to defend it becomes so strong. 

Its another tragedy altogether that we judge ones actions (or lack thereof) as a sum of their parts. To ignore that people are transient beings capable of change and rational thought. That fundamental discussion withers and bears no fruit and people resort to the tribalism of "with us or against". An unfortunate facet of many communities and it saddens me that goon is no exception. 

My question to the admin team, both current and ex - by the things kicked off, was there ever a serious discussion that members of your team were ostracized by the actions of others? Or was it even recognized at the time?

There is speak of admin guidelines in the pipeline, but is there a consensus now amongst the team on what needs to be done? 


(Not expecting an answer on this exactly now, i.e: will bring up in town hall event)

Quote:Self-harm crisis lines:

• US/Canada: National Suicide Prevention Lifeline 800/273-8255 https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
  
• UK: Samaritans Hotline 116 123 https://www.samaritans.org/ (Also 212/673-3000, they WILL help people not from the UK.  Note that I have no data one way or the other about whether they handle LGBTQIA+ issues gracefully - they claim to, and I haven't heard otherwise, but.)
  
• Rest of Europe: varies, look at https://www.iasp.info/resources/Crisis_Centres/Europe/
  
• Everywhere else: http://www.suicide.org/international-sui...lines.html
  
• Text / SMS based crisis counseling - if you're in the US, text HELP to 741741. If you're in Canada, text HELP to 686868, and if you're in the UK, text HELP to 85258.  Operated by Crisis Text Line at https://www.crisistextline.org/ , and that URL will also provide text codes for some other countries as well.  Contacts are anonymized (the person you text with cannot see your phone number), and at least in the US with a Verizon, Sprint, T-Mobile, or AT&T phone, it won't even appear on the billing history (so if your billing details are seen by someone else, they won't even know you reached out.) Other providers, or those providers in other countries, might or might not work that way - it's the intent, but requires special handling which might or might not be possible in other countries.