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Detectives, their gun, and supercopping. - Printable Version

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Re: Detectives, their gun, and supercopping. - Ed Venture - 04-03-2015

Quote:I feel people are trying to fix shitty players by making the job more difficult, which is not the fix.

Pretty much this. Detective is fine where it is at, There is no need to remove or add anything to the job. If you deal with a supercop tell security about it. If the supercop turns out to be more shit the he already is, then adminhelp it.

Re: Detectives, their gun, and supercopping. - Ed Venture - 04-03-2015

Walrus it says quite clearly on the wiki you sceenshot that they are not security officers.

Re: Detectives, their gun, and supercopping. - BaneOfGiygas - 04-03-2015

Ed Venture Wrote:Walrus it says quite clearly on the wiki you sceenshot that they are not security officers.
It's important to note that the same wiki screenshot also says that they are security.

Re: Detectives, their gun, and supercopping. - Ed Venture - 04-03-2015

BaneOfGiygas Wrote:
Ed Venture Wrote:Walrus it says quite clearly on the wiki you sceenshot that they are not security officers.
It's important to note that the same wiki screenshot also says that they are security.

What a conundrum.

Re: Detectives, their gun, and supercopping. - Dauntasa - 04-03-2015

it's the difference between doctors and roboticists: they're both medical, but they're not the same job and they have different responsibilities

The detective is not a security officer but is still part of the security department.

Re: Detectives, their gun, and supercopping. - Dauntasa - 04-03-2015

anyone saying the detective isn't part of Security is just wrong, demonstrably. Go try and join a round late: the detective option is under "Security". Their office has security doors, they have a security headset. They're security. They are not a Security Officer, and their job is not to go around arresting people. This is why they have a revolver and not a taser: it's for self-defence and for killing changelings/rampaging traitors. It's not for arresting people, because that isn't the detective's job. That's what Security officers do.

Re: Detectives, their gun, and supercopping. - Walrus - 04-03-2015

UrsulaMejor Wrote:
Quote:Once again, pulling something out of your ass does not constitute as truth.
vOv except this is how it's always been, so it's not being pulled out of my ass. countless times, admins and coders and players alike have all acknowledged detective as a separate entity from security; security being the security officers and HoS.
You're pulling it out of your ass, sorry. "That's how it is" does not constitute as the truth either. Try again next time, thanks for playing etc.
UrsulaMejor Wrote:There's security (jobs associated with the law) and there's security (jobs associated with arresting people and enforcing the law, I.e officers and the HoS), man.
No, there's security (Sec officer, Detective, HoS), man. Just because you say it's true doesn't mean that it's true.
[Image: ZOpyOO1.png]
UrsulaMejor Wrote:the Lawyer is part of the "security" section of the wiki but he's not "security" as we are using it. he's not a part of the team, he's not supposed to go around enforcing the law, and even though he's got access to the area and used to have an office in direct proximity to the main sec lounge, he's not security.
The lawyer is not part of the "security" section of the wiki and you (again) are pulling this out of your ass.
UrsulaMejor Wrote:the detective is a gimmick job fit investigating crimes, the Lawyer was a gimmick job for representing criminals in court. this have them red ids and nice pdas and security headsets and an office and access to the cells, and this got them sorted under the "security" tab on the wiki, but remember that the wiki is updated and maintained by players, not the admins, and it's not uncommon for it to be wrong or for it to represent minority opinion.
So you (falsely) quote the wiki the paragraph before to try and prove your point and now you're throwing it out the window in regards to my proof because it's unreliable? You're not very good at this, are you?
UrsulaMejor Wrote:that your constant "pulling out of ass" accusations and flippant attitude are unwarranted.
No they are not. I can make these accusations because I have proof, while you are simply saying "The detective isn't sec because I/He/She/They say so." Stop pulling things out of your ass.
Quote:but you should recognize that you're the minority opinion here (and either way, this IS a role play centric job and this IS both opinionj and
Being in the "minority" opinion when the opposing side is a whopping two people in this thread. Both of them clearly want the detective out of security, so they jump the gun and come to the incorrect conclusion that he wasn't/isn't security in the first place in an attempt to validate their argument. It isn't true just because you say it's true. Saying that it's the majority opinion that the detective isn't sec doesn't make it true, nor does it make the minority opinion any less true.

I'm sorry this is so hard for you to understand.

Re: Detectives, their gun, and supercopping. - Ali0en - 04-03-2015

That's from a wiki. Written by a player.

A wiki.

And quit responding like an asshole. You're not witty, you look like a shitter and a tool.

Re: Detectives, their gun, and supercopping. - Sundance - 04-03-2015

:downs:
This thread is like putting your head in a bag of glue and asking you to inhale.
The wiki is wrong about alot of things.
DyssalC Wrote:Yes, detectives have an issue with not investigating. However, the way to get him to do more investigating is NOT to make it really hard for him to do his job. If he arrests someone but has no sec access, what does he do? Just carry them around for a while? Oh, you say hand him over to sec? So what? The difference is now he has to ask a sec officer to brig the guy? So essentially just adding a middle-man is your fix? Amazing. This solves nothing. I feel people are trying to fix shitty players by making the job more difficult, which is not the fix.

It REALLY seems like everybody is making a mountain out of a molehill with this. Like, ya, some detectives don't investigate. And some MD's don't heal you. And some geneticists don't clone you. And some sec officers don't make an effort to fight crime. And some captains don't try to protect the disk. And some HoPs don't help people at customs. And some engineers don't even bother repairing hull breaches. This happens because that specific person is just bad, not because the job is wrongly equipped.

I'm perfectly fine with giving the detective limited lethal ammo, or again hiding it behind hacked sec dispensers, however limiting non-lethal ammo would be a poor-choice as that's too severe of a nerf.

I'm going to ground my points here:
1. I think the detective IS security. But he's as much security as the HoP is, he has a different role to play and this has been stated again and again. But I don't think the detective's job is to ACT security. His job is to investigate and to an extent spy on people. He is intelligence. And just like real detectives in real life, he's entitled to arrest someone, but the processing and punishment is in the hands of security whether that be the captain/sec or HoS. Maybe removing sec access is a step too far, but the point was that when a prisoner is in the hands of security, they are no longer in the hands of the detective, as ITS NOT HIS JOB. If a detective makes it his job, then that's fine, but he's in no way obliged to rescue sec if they are in the shit.

2. The gun should have limited ammo in both lethal AND non-lethal, for the reasons already stated. He is NOT acting security. He is not meant to go chasing criminals and stunning them down. His gun is meant for self-defense. If he so happens to catch a criminal in the act, then sure, he can arrest them but it's not particularly his job. His job would be more to inform security that X happened, and Y did Z.

DyssalC:
I'd like to know how lowering his bullets would make him worse at his job, because his job is to investigate, not shoot at people. This would mean that the detective will only discharge his gun when he needs to, and makes those bullets count. I've been in a firefight with a detective, and he speed reloaded 4 fucking times. That's over 21 times he shot his gun. That's not the guns purpose. And it's a gross advantage.
One point I especially disagree with is just because a specific person is bad, and not because the job is wrongly equipped.
Yes I agree a bad person will make a job look bad. That's rather obvious.
But I think the detective IS wrongly equipped. Too much bullets and not enough investigative tools gives people the wrong idea about what the detectives job actually is. He should have all the things that was suggested in previous detective threads; better security cameras, covert listening devices, thermals that actually aid his job seen as he starts with them, and a whole other bunch of things. The new scanner is a vast improvement over the old one, but there needs to be more like that, that fits into goon paced rounds.

Re: Detectives, their gun, and supercopping. - Dauntasa - 04-03-2015

Sundance Wrote::

I'm going to ground my points here:
1. I think the detective IS security. But he's as much security as the HoP is, he has a different role to play and this has been stated again and again. But I don't think the detective's job is to ACT security. His job is to investigate and to an extent spy on people. He is intelligence. And just like real detectives in real life, he's entitled to arrest someone, but the processing and punishment is in the hands of security whether that be the captain/sec or HoS. Maybe removing sec access is a step too far, but the point was that when a prisoner is in the hands of security, they are no longer in the hands of the detective, as ITS NOT HIS JOB. If a detective makes it his job, then that's fine, but he's in no way obliged to rescue sec if they are in the shit.

The HoP isn't security at all. His job is ID stuff and beyond the fact that this allows him to give himself sec access and pinch all the guns he's not sec. The detective's job is sec, it's distinct from but directly related to the job that Sec Officers do.

There's no reason to remove his sec access when he doesn't have Sec Equipment access. Removing his sec access just makes it harder to do his job, which involves working with Sec Officers if he's doing it properly.

The revolver is a useful item for self-defence, which he needs if he's doing his job properly because if he's doing his job properly he's probably going to run into someone who wants him dead. There is no reason to take away his ammo and make his revolver ineffective. You've been a player long enough to remember this, Sundance: the detective's revolver used to be useless. It used to come with 2 speedloaders worth of ammo, and the lethals barely did any damage. I remember HoSing in that time period, and every single round the Detective would go to the HoP, get sec equipment access, and grab a taser. Every round. He was basically a Sec officer with a funny hat.

Making the Detective's unique weapon worse is not the way to make him more distinct from Sec, it's a way to make him bum guns off of Sec. You're trying to solve a problem that basically doesn't exist by reintroducing a problem that was already fixed.

And besides holy shit how is he still shooting at you 21 shots later? A gross advantage? What the fuck? Were you completely unarmed and trapped behind a table or some shit? Disarm him! Stun him! The only way he should be able to do that is if you're cuffed to a chair and he's using you for target practice.

Re: Detectives, their gun, and supercopping. - Walrus - 04-03-2015

Ali0en Wrote:That's from a wiki.
Yes
Ali0en Wrote:Written by a player.
No
Ali0en Wrote:A wiki.
Correct again, captain.

Anything else?

Re: Detectives, their gun, and supercopping. - Sundance - 04-03-2015

But the HoP CAN arrest someone if he wants to. He can act security if needs be, but he shouldn't. And that's why I comparing him to the detective. Detective shouldn't be chasing after criminals. He should be the one giving the info to security on who they need to chase. I'm not budging from this perspective.

I understand removing security access is probably a step too far, I retract it. Mainly because of the interrogation room. That's literally built for him. If sec was two compartments and there was sec HQ and the brig, well I would believe the det has no reason to be in the brig. That aint his job.

I remember the detectives gun as it was. It was literally a peeshooter that did shit all in terms of damage. It was pointless. Then it was upped in damage, and then the blood system came in and now it's a rather robust weapon that needs no change. Other than the munition stockpile he seems to have.
Really now, is saying that he should just start with a box (which contains 6 speedloaders, 3 of each type, plus the bullets that start in his gun) of bullets that much of a gripe? That's more than enough to protect himself.
Instead of, well, let me see.. 4 sec vendors, 4 speedloaders in each.. plus the two that are in his locker separately..
That's a total of 24 speedloaders if my calculations are correct. 7 shots in each.. That's 168 shots. That's fucking stupid. You may argue that nobody will use up that amount of bullets but nobody should have access to that amount of bullets in the first place. It's like I said, against the entire purpose of the gun.

And the reason that detective managed to shoot at me over 21 times is because he literally had me cornered and was using his gun like some sort of uzi to keep me cornered while he thought of a better plan other than wasting his apparent bag full of bullets.

Re: Detectives, their gun, and supercopping. - Dr_Bee - 04-03-2015

We are getting a bit off topic. I didnt make this thread to discuss detectives role or security access, I simply wanted to discuss his access to lethal force options. Generally the only security personnel that should have access to lethal force options is the HoS, security officer. The security team isnt an execution squad and should always err on the side of non-lethal take-downs. my suggestion to move lethal rounds behind HoS access would simply remove the temptation for a detective to go LAPD on people with deadly force. Sec that murders players without fun RP trails tends to be disliked.

Re: Detectives, their gun, and supercopping. - Dauntasa - 04-03-2015

Dr_Bee Wrote:We are getting a bit off topic. I didnt make this thread to discuss detectives role or security access, I simply wanted to discuss his access to lethal force options. Generally the only security personnel that should have access to lethal force options is the HoS, security officer. The security team isnt an execution squad and should always err on the side of non-lethal take-downs. my suggestion to move lethal rounds behind HoS access would simply remove the temptation for a detective to go LAPD on people with deadly force. Sec that murders players without fun RP trails tends to be disliked.

moving the lethal rounds behind HoS access is dumb, there's no need to make the HoS babysit the detective when he's supposed to be more of an independent agent

The detective would still have access to stunning weapons and handcuffs which make it very, very easy to kill someone. This change accomplishes nothing except making the Detective less effective and giving the HoS more work to do.

Re: Detectives, their gun, and supercopping. - Dauntasa - 04-03-2015

I'm willing to admit Sundance might have a point about the Detective having a million bullets. The sec vendors don't necessarily need to be full of them, the starting box is probably plenty.

Moving the lethals behind HoS access is a big fat no from me, though. Completely unnecessary.