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+--- Thread: The Relationship Between Traitors and the HoS (/showthread.php?tid=4259)
Re: The Relationship Between Traitors and the HoS - Ed Venture - 02-24-2015
Alright sorry for dragging that out.
If possible and I do catch a rampaging traitor if he has not killed more then three people, I take everything all his items away. If he is a head I demote him according and give him the max time in the brig for the murder(s). That's the only chance they get from me, if they get caught again I will either kill them or ask my officers to quickly brainstorm on his fate and then we vote for the best idea. Granted I only do this if it is not late in the round. The best time I had a vote on a traitor's fate is when we all agreed that turning him into a monkey and letting him loose on the station would be pretty funny, of course we let the crew know that the monkey was the traitor. The monkey did not last long sadly, even the tables could not save him. Voting is fun and involving your officers into these things can be really fun as well.
Now if there is a massive firefight going down and their are multiple crew members in the cross-fire I try my best to protect them and get the attention of the gun man on to me. At that point I do my best to conserve my shot while waiting for a short pause in the fight to quickly radio for back up. At this point everything is out of the question, and there is no choice but to put the gunman down as soon as possible. Also learn how to dodge people there will be many times you are fighting someone armed to the teeth and you will have ran out of ammo and only have a baton.
All in all it comes down to due process. What kind of crime did they commit? What kind of punishment is reasonable?
Re: The Relationship Between Traitors and the HoS - LinkDaWolf - 02-24-2015
my 2 cents summed up with examples! Cool!
Traitor Doug is doing a gimmick. This gimmick doesn't really involve killing people, unless in self defense. Traitor Doug's gimmick can be considered fun by most of the crew. The HOS, in this situation, should probably not kill Doug. Instead, arrests, their own gimmicks (such as a trial), or going along with Doug's gimmick (if it would make it more fun for everyone involved!) would be a good way to go! This gimmick is fun in this scenario, but it should be up to the discretion of the HOS depending on circumstances what to do.
Traitor Dan is just trying to complete his objectives in a stealthy way. Dan is killing people when necessary, or if they're his target, but he isn't going on a rampage. In this case, Dan should be arrested, have his gear confiscated, etc. If Dan tries to kill the HOS, the HOS should probably kill him if they deem it necessary. Arresting may cut the traitors fun short, but it may also make it more fun for him as he has another chance to try and succeed. It'd also give the traitor ways to come up with plans for whatever may happen if he gets caught. If they try to kill the HOS, well, they can't expect the HOS not to fight back! If the HOS decides execution is the best way to handle this sort of traitor, that's fine! Everyone plays differently. A public execution may be more fun for everyone than tossing them naked out an airlock, though, and gives a quick-thinking traitor the potential to escape..
Traitor Dave is going on a rampage!!! Dave is killing everyone he sees without compromise. The HOS should kill Dave, as I believe a rampaging traitor tends to be less fun. Watching a guy kill everyone as a ghost isn't that exciting for the most part! While this cuts short the traitor's fun, overall it's less fun for the majority of players!
TL;DR:
In my opinion:
If the traitor is doing a gimmick, but isn't actively killing anyone unless necessary (read: vigilantes attacking them), it'd probably be more fun to arrest/go along with gimmicks/include your own gimmicks such as a trial
If the traitor is stealthily doing their objectives, they should be arrested and given a second chance to complete their objectives, without their gear. Killing them also seems like an ok solution to me, but potentially with a Fun Public Execution. If they try and kill you, you should fight back.
If the traitor is going on a rampage, you should match that show of force and try to kill them without mercy.
Re: The Relationship Between Traitors and the HoS - Sundance - 02-24-2015
Conor12 Wrote:Seems like security has went from one extreme to another.
They have. And we've learned some valuable lessons along the way. The problem here is that when exiting the so-called "hugbox" that security is right now, that we need to retain why the hell we went from one extreme to another. The reason why we went was because security was a gestapo with an absolute unbending view on antagonists.
We've come also to realize that vigilantism is toxic behavior. Why? Because there's little control as to the damage dished out.
People also need to realize, that alot of security control was lost due to the amount of antagonists increased per round a while ago. This whole "tension" that nitrous is talking about back in the old days, I feel is actually due to the fact that when you spawned as traitor, there was a little less chaos and anything you did stuck out like a sore thumb. That and you'd go down from one shot of a taser.
Personally I think the current map is got to do with some of it. Security is not central, and while the brig is aesthetically lovely, it is an abomination in terms of actual punishment. Something that really grated me when we went to the hugbox that security is now is the abandonment of using the brig because it was deemed not fun, and as a result you got what you have now: A functionally useless brig. I've always held the notion that time out in the brig, while the bad person learns absolutely nothing from it, it gives the entire station some time to recover from the damage that was caused. Fortunately with the new Cogmap, security seems central and the brig seems more functional, so I will bite my tongue.
I don't know. I would like security to have more control over the round going forward. But if that means killing more traitors because of that, then i'll crack sec skulls if I see behavior that is unwarranted, and so help me god if security start murdering captives just because they are valid, then they'll go the same way as the antagonist throat they strangled. I believe in due process, amongst the chaos that ensues, because I believe the concept of the HoS is to rise above the chaos.
Re: The Relationship Between Traitors and the HoS - Marquesas - 02-27-2015
Sundance Wrote:Conor12 Wrote:Seems like security has went from one extreme to another.
They have. And we've learned some valuable lessons along the way. The problem here is that when exiting the so-called "hugbox" that security is right now, that we need to retain why the hell we went from one extreme to another. The reason why we went was because security was a gestapo with an absolute unbending view on antagonists.
Unpopular opinion: Even the Gestapo is more fun than the hugbox.
Re: The Relationship Between Traitors and the HoS - Ali0en - 02-27-2015
We're already legally allowed to kill people. I mean a broborg was lasered to death last night for honking.
Re: The Relationship Between Traitors and the HoS - Cogwerks - 02-27-2015
Hugbox is silly and I feel like I've contributed to that mindset, bluh.
Here are some disjointed rambling thoughts on crime and punishment:
- HoS's ought to be both a lethally dangerous adversary and a voice of reason.
- If you attack an HoS with apparently lethal intent, don't fuckin' cry about it when you lose.
- Same for the detective or anyone else, really. Traitor tip #1: never fight fair.
- I'd hoped putting VR stuff, mail, computers and stuff in the brig would give prisoners something to do.
- Maybe we should revise the general suggested arrest times upwards a little. <5min seems laughably pointless, but obviously Bay's 1-4 hour sentences won't work.
- If you can stun and capture someone, that is generally preferable vs. summary execution.
- 'legit kills' are an awful and toxic concept
- generally speaking, deadchat is full of sore losers and chumps
- for fuck's sake don't let captured traitors just have all their lethal toys back, but maybe do let them know where it went
- aughhhhh
Re: The Relationship Between Traitors and the HoS - Sundance - 02-27-2015
Marquesas Wrote:Unpopular opinion: Even the Gestapo is more fun than the hugbox.More fun for whom?
The entire reasoning behind the shift was because the Gestapo was unfun for the traitors, as people were tired of their rounds being cut short by zealous shithead officers.
Besides, my argument wasn't that either the gestapo/hugbox were good, I was stating that both were bad. We need a happy medium.
Quote:I'd hoped putting VR stuff, mail, computers and stuff in the brig would give prisoners something to do.This is all dandy, but again the brig is not used because of the reasons that I previously highlighted.
Example: Why bother using ANY of the stuff when the disposal chute is literally one window away. Not only that, but prisoners don't even get shocked anymore with exposed wires. I'd prefer if the brig was a combination of mushroom and what we have. Not crappy and suicidal box prisons for 1, nor big open prisons , but more like actual prisons, fit for 2 people so you can interact with your prison chump, basically force a player to interact with another for both good and bad effects.
Quote:Maybe we should revise the general suggested arrest times upwards a little. <5min seems laughably pointless, but obviously Bay's 1-4 hour sentences won't work.Again, this is due the fallacies of the brig. What's laughably pointless is actually brigging prisoners right now.
With regards of the time, I think 5 minutes is actually fine. When you think about it, the arresting..the stripping..the questioning..followed by the actual brigging and then followed by the prisoner sorting his shit out afterwards, it's actually about 10 minutes. That's actually kinda long seen as most rounds last 45-50 minutes.
The brigging time isn't anything to do with actual punishment imo. It's meant for segregation "well, that's that guy outta the way for a few minutes, lets deal with the mess he's caused i.e: Explosions, cloning, etc". If you are raising the brig time with the intent to punish the crimer, it's a bad move.
Re: The Relationship Between Traitors and the HoS - Frank_Stein - 02-27-2015
Ideal HoS/Sec methods of operation, imo
Re: The Relationship Between Traitors and the HoS - Paineframe - 02-27-2015
Cogwerks Wrote:I don't know about the main brig, which I have literally never ever been imprisoned in, but the computer in the solitary cell (where shitlords like to put people since it's much more difficult to escape) doesn't appear to be able to do anything useful or interesting - it's just a generic ThinkDOS computer with nothing except a mail client.
- I'd hoped putting VR stuff, mail, computers and stuff in the brig would give prisoners something to do.
- Maybe we should revise the general suggested arrest times upwards a little. <5min seems laughably pointless, but obviously Bay's 1-4 hour sentences won't work.
With arrest times, remember that the time spent in the brig isn't the only time spent captive. People have to be stunned by a sec officer, cuffed, dragged across the station to sec, and then sec usually takes a few minutes to strip or interrogate the person, and then they usually lose their grip on the person who runs around in circles for a while, and then they finally get thrown in the brig and a sec officer nails them with another 5 minutes. It can often be a hefty chunk of the round - and for a traitor, that time is precious, especially since people seem to be calling the shuttle earlier these days.
Re: The Relationship Between Traitors and the HoS - Heiraphont - 02-27-2015
People tend to think that killing a traitor 10 minutes in is lame. It comes from those words we used to use, "play-to-win". Where a Security guard would slap on his thermals and immediately roam the halls waiting to catch someone spawning in their stuff, just to chuck them out of an airlock. And that IS pretty shitty behavior.
But a HoS defending himself with lethal force from a dangerous threat? That is why they have a laser gun. Five minutes in, sixty minutes in, doesn't matter. If you're ready to pull the trigger, be prepared to have it pulled against you.
Re: The Relationship Between Traitors and the HoS - BaneOfGiygas - 02-27-2015
I've tossed in my brief and largely inconsequential experiences as not-sec sec, but it made me think about something. What about the Captain?
He might not have the inability to spawn as an antag, and he might not have armory access, but he can still go everywhere, he's still (technically) the highest authority on the station, and he also has an energy gun. I know that, if there's a distinct lack of security members on the station, I sometimes end up playing pseudo-sec as the Captain for lack of many other things to do. Does the Captain fall under the same type of jurisdiction as the HoS? After all, their actual authority is dubious at times and since captains technically aren't security, I'm not sure where they'd come into play in all of this.
Re: The Relationship Between Traitors and the HoS - Zafhset - 02-27-2015
BaneOfGiygas Wrote:What about the Captain?
He might not have the inability to spawn as an antag, and he might not have armory access, but he can still go everywhere, he's still (technically) the highest authority on the station, and he also has an energy gun. I know that, if there's a distinct lack of security members on the station, I sometimes end up playing pseudo-sec as the Captain for lack of many other things to do. Does the Captain fall under the same type of jurisdiction as the HoS? After all, their actual authority is dubious at times and since captains technically aren't security, I'm not sure where they'd come into play in all of this.
http://wiki.ss13.co/Captain#Captain.27s_Rights_.26_Duties
It's your station - if trouble is afoot, you have the right to check it out.
Re: The Relationship Between Traitors and the HoS - Ed Venture - 02-27-2015
I now see the folly of my attitude towards this. I still would have not have executed the dude but understand that he had it coming. I apologize for the unnecessary and quite rude rant towards you Sham Poo.
Sundance Wrote:Marquesas Wrote:Unpopular opinion: Even the Gestapo is more fun than the hugbox.More fun for whom?
The entire reasoning behind the shift was because the Gestapo was unfun for the traitors, as people were tired of their rounds being cut short by zealous shithead officers.
Besides, my argument wasn't that either the gestapo/hugbox were good, I was stating that both were bad. We need a happy medium.
Cogwerks Wrote:Hugbox is silly and I feel like I've contributed to that mindset, bluh.
Here are some disjointed rambling thoughts on crime and punishment:
- HoS's ought to be both a lethally dangerous adversary and a voice of reason.
- If you attack an HoS with apparently lethal intent, don't fuckin' cry about it when you lose.
- Same for the detective or anyone else, really. Traitor tip #1: never fight fair.
- I'd hoped putting VR stuff, mail, computers and stuff in the brig would give prisoners something to do.
- Maybe we should revise the general suggested arrest times upwards a little. <5min seems laughably pointless, but obviously Bay's 1-4 hour sentences won't work.
- If you can stun and capture someone, that is generally preferable vs. summary execution.
- 'legit kills' are an awful and toxic concept
- generally speaking, deadchat is full of sore losers and chumps
- for fuck's sake don't let captured traitors just have all their lethal toys back, but maybe do let them know where it went
- aughhhhh
This pretty much is a good example on it but I also agree with Marquesas that a much harsher tone needs to be brought to the table when dealing with traitors, depending on the severity of their crimes of course. I've spent sometime reflecting on that round while reading this thread and it really open my eyes on things.
Re: The Relationship Between Traitors and the HoS - Houka - 03-01-2015
I have seen some varying ideas on how to deal with traitors, and I admit I get very angry with people who space traitors just for having some traitor gear on them. Not only is that shoddy police work, it's overzealous and bad. When you arrest someone, you make damn sure they've actually caused harm or death with those things or you're doing that person a disservice.
Ultimately, my belief is that you don't need to be nice to criminals, but you need to treat the crew with the utmost patience and deal with problems on a case-by-case basis.
I know for a fact that I have arrested and brigged people for things that, ordinarily, would get them killed by vigilantes or less patient security officers. There was one time when I arrested someone in the middle of the bar for having traitor gear on him, just so I could confiscate it from him and stuff it in a locker. I didn't murder him on the spot, because he hadn't really done anything to deserve that at the time. Another time, a man emagged all of security, and openly admitted it to the entire station, so I found him, captured him and spaced him, because that is sabotage and indirectly caused a lot of harm and frustration for a lot of the crew and made it impossible for security to brig anyone.
Do not forgive people for doing obviously destructive and evil things. But don't punish people who haven't done anything to deserve it yet.
Tough but fair, folks. Tough but fair. Just my two cents.
Re: The Relationship Between Traitors and the HoS - Spy_Guy - 03-01-2015
Houka Wrote:Another time, a man emagged all of security, and openly admitted it to the entire station, so I found him, captured him and spaced him, because that is sabotage and indirectly caused a lot of harm and frustration for a lot of the crew and made it impossible for security to brig anyone.
Good heavens that was annoying.
He made his own bed.