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+--- Thread: Make rogue AIs more threatening (/showthread.php?tid=4151)
Re: Make rogue AIs more threatening - Amuys - 02-09-2015
Maybe allow the AI to directly control bots and have them function as if they were emagged? IDK
Re: Make rogue AIs more threatening - BaneOfGiygas - 02-09-2015
That's just the thing: Cooperation can be incredibly hit-or-miss on Space Station 13, and I can guarantee you that the number of antags who upload laws and never so much as speak to me again outnumbers those who actually try and cooperate with me whenever I'm an AI. Cyborgs are more likely to help out, but it's still possible that they can completely ignore you in favor of RCDing the bar into space or whatever.
Self-sufficiency is really what I'm proposing here. The fact that the station AI, a high and mighty computer that surveys just about the entire station, has to rely so heavily on other people to reliably fuck shit up is, to be perfectly honest, rather disappointing and a bit misleading as far as the tone is concerned. The lack of cooperation isn't just on the side of traitors and cyborgs, either: Some AIs immediately start reaching for the airlock controls when they go rogue and never consider any other options due to their esotericness, initial difficulty, or reliance on other players.
Re: Make rogue AIs more threatening - Amuys - 02-09-2015
Depends. The main reason why the AI malfunctioning on the other stations is so crazy that it has control over atmos and can quickly turn the air into superheated carbon dioxide or simply remove it all. They can also do stuff like mass produce emagged bots, overcharge APCs to make doors lethal, and detonate machines.
I'd just settle for better bots and more control over smaller things.
Re: Make rogue AIs more threatening - BaneOfGiygas - 02-09-2015
I'm in the same boat, really. As I said before, I'm not asking to make rogue AIs unstoppable death machines capable of annihilating the station on their own. Just give us a few, more hands-on little features that could potentially be used to wreak more havoc. I'm particularly partial to the ability to take control of the little robots, although I'm not sure how much of a hassle it would be coding-wise.
Re: Make rogue AIs more threatening - Erev - 02-09-2015
BaneOfGiygas Wrote:I'm in the same boat, really. As I said before, I'm not asking to make rogue AIs unstoppable death machines capable of annihilating the station on their own. Just give us a few, more hands-on little features that could potentially be used to wreak more havoc. I'm particularly partial to the ability to take control of the little robots, although I'm not sure how much of a hassle it would be coding-wise.
This, the ability to override door safety controls to crush people, and the ability to reassign door access levels.
Re: Make rogue AIs more threatening - Frank_Stein - 02-09-2015
What if borg bodies could be controlled by AI if they were given some kind of signal assembly in place of a brain?
Re: Make rogue AIs more threatening - Pigbear1 - 02-09-2015
Frank_Stein Wrote:What if borg bodies could be controlled by AI if they were given some kind of signal assembly in place of a brain?
AI control modules already exist for the purpose of making shells, Why not make them for able to be put in borgs too?
Re: Make rogue AIs more threatening - Haine - 02-10-2015
Pigbear1 Wrote:That was and still is the plan, I've just been extremely distractible re: getting that actually doneFrank_Stein Wrote:What if borg bodies could be controlled by AI if they were given some kind of signal assembly in place of a brain?
AI control modules already exist for the purpose of making shells, Why not make them for able to be put in borgs too?
Re: Make rogue AIs more threatening - Paineframe - 02-10-2015
Instead of trying to personally purge the station all by yourself, why not use your abilities to aid the traitor - you know, the person who relawed you into being exclusively loyal to them and them only, and to caring only about their life and no one else's? The AI is basically an overgrown helperbot, that's why it can't do much independently - it's basically a smart door-opener, so it shouldn't be surprising that it can't kill much.
Re: Make rogue AIs more threatening - BaneOfGiygas - 02-10-2015
Because, as I just mentioned, not many traitors try to actively cooperate with a subverted AI, and trying to help out a traitor who you don't even know the plans of can be dodgy at best. Not only that, but some folks are fond of laws that specifically turn the AI into a murderbot and order them to purge all non-humans or whatever.
Re: Make rogue AIs more threatening - Spy_Guy - 02-10-2015
BaneOfGiygas Wrote:Because, as I just mentioned, not many traitors try to actively cooperate with a subverted AI, and trying to help out a traitor who you don't even know the plans of can be dodgy at best. Not only that, but some folks are fond of laws that specifically turn the AI into a murderbot and order them to purge all non-humans or whatever.
A lot of the time people subvert the ai to get it off their backs.
The people who tell the ai to get murdering are either hoping for borgs or don't understand the capabilities of the goon ai.
As an ai you should think of yourself as an eye in the sky for whoever needs you. Borgs will be very happy if you relay locations of nonhumans for them. Traitors will be glad if you can keep the crew off their backs.
Plus, you can control the crew just by words if you have not given them any reason to doubt you.
I don't think the ai needs a buff. In fact, they are horrendously powerful now. Even more so than when I did my thing.
Re: Make rogue AIs more threatening - BaneOfGiygas - 02-10-2015
The way I see it, it's a similar problem that the blob had (and arguably still has) as far as usefulness is concerned. If a rogue AI can avoid suspicion for long enough, build itself up in just the right manner, and get a network of informants going, it can be an absolute terror to the station. The problem is that the number of times this DOESN'T happen vastly outnumbers the number of times it does. If an AI slips up even once or gives off the slightest hint of being rogue, folks are going to grab the hacking tools and then it's game over unless a cyborg or antag comes to the rescue, which in my experience, rarely happens. Similarly to the earlier blob, the AI has very few methods of defending itself in the event of an attack unless it has backup.
Spy_Guy Wrote:Plus, you can control the crew just by words if you have not given them any reason to doubt you.The issue here is that being the AI can be reason for people to doubt you. If the AI does anything remotely against orders, if the robots are acting even the slightest bit weird, or if doors are just bolted/electrocuted in any location, people can be rather quick to blame the AI. The balancing act is massively difficult, and some kind of insurance that you can use as a panic option in case shit's hit the fan and you've got a hacker army on your hands would be nice to have.
Re: Make rogue AIs more threatening - Paineframe - 02-10-2015
BaneOfGiygas Wrote:Because, as I just mentioned, not many traitors try to actively cooperate with a subverted AI, and trying to help out a traitor who you don't even know the plans of can be dodgy at best. Not only that, but some folks are fond of laws that specifically turn the AI into a murderbot and order them to purge all non-humans or whatever.So cooperate with the traitor. Bolt doors and toggle APCs to support his activities. Or just make do with what little you can do. Nobody expects a lone AI to single-handedly murder the entire station, just like it's not able to do much else single-handedly (AI is very much a "helper", not a "doer") and you haven't really given a reason for why the AI should be good at killing people, other than "it isn't good at killing people".
BaneOfGiygas Wrote:The way I see it, it's a similar problem that the blob had (and arguably still has) as far as usefulness is concerned. If a rogue AI can avoid suspicion for long enough, build itself up in just the right manner, and get a network of informants going, it can be an absolute terror to the station. The problem is that the number of times this DOESN'T happen vastly outnumbers the number of times it does. If an AI slips up even once or gives off the slightest hint of being rogue, folks are going to grab the hacking tools and then it's game over unless a cyborg or antag comes to the rescue, which in my experience, rarely happens. Similarly to the earlier blob, the AI has very few methods of defending itself in the event of an attack unless it has backup.Getting your laws reset isn't an attack, nor is it game over. It just means you're no longer allowed to kill people.
Re: Make rogue AIs more threatening - BaneOfGiygas - 02-10-2015
Paineframe Wrote:Getting your laws reset isn't an attack, nor is it game over. It just means you're no longer allowed to kill people.It's a game over in the sense that you're not rogue anymore. If you're the type of AI that likes being rogue and/or is trying very hard to NOT get your laws reset, anyone busting into your upload is pretty much attacking you, if not your interests. And some folks are more than willing to straight-up attack you anyways.
Paineframe Wrote:So cooperate with the traitor. Bolt doors and toggle APCs to support his activities. Or just make do with what little you can do. Nobody expects a lone AI to single-handedly murder the entire station, just like it's not able to do much else single-handedly (AI is very much a "helper", not a "doer") and you haven't really given a reason for why the AI should be good at killing people, other than "it isn't good at killing people".Note that being a more threatening force to the station does not necessarily equate to being able to kill people; all I'm asking for is something beyond airlock controls. And, as SpyGuy just said, most people subvert the AI not to actually work with the thing, but rather to ensure that it doesn't have to worry about getting called out. Having license to kill people is sometimes an added bonus.
But the problem is, as mentioned before, people will be more than happy to stage a raid on your upload the moment they start thinking that you've been subverted. When that point is reached, it is very infrequently that the traitor who subverted you will actually bother going and stopping the hacking party, because they either are too busy traitoring, can't be assed, or don't feel like dealing with the chaos in such a tight space. This effectively renders you a sitting duck with very few defensive measures (the lone turret can be rather easily foiled by savvy enough crew members and/or a meatshield) by which to stop it. I don't claim to be an expert on how to AI, but I'd like to believe I've been in enough AI rounds to recognize that this is a nigh-consistent trend. Antagonists working with subverted AIs ends up being the exception, not the rule.
Being able to make AI-controlled cyborgs, I think, will give the AI more capacity for hands-on work. Still not phenomenally useful in doing as opposed to helping, but it gives the AI more agency, be that for destructive purposes or otherwise. Of course, this would require getting a willing crew member to slap a frame together for you, but I'd imagine most Roboticists these days would be overjoyed at having something to do.
Re: Make rogue AIs more threatening - Amuys - 02-11-2015
As soon as someone says "rogue AI", people just get their fire extinguishers and wirecutters. Bolted airlocks aren't hard to circumvent, the sarin smoking chemborg on the other hand...