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+--- Thread: Antag Tokens should respect your prefs (/showthread.php?tid=12691)
RE: Antag Tokens should respect your prefs - warcrimes - 08-05-2019
Here's my thinks on this:
Tokens already have a measure in place where they can fail to be redeemed because of other concurrent tokens being redeemed in a round with limited antagonists (i.e. you can't accidentally roll 10 blobs in a single round because 10 nerds redeemed on a blob round).
We can't reasonably have a token redeeming dictate the round type because of the potential metaknowledge, obviously, but more critically there's not a fair way to resolve that if two players with mutually exclusive prefs redeem.
We could potentially respect prefs during redeem & give a failure if the pre-selected round type does not match your prefs, but once again theres a leak of info. If you were to redeem and not be selected, it means one of two things happenned: a) too many tokens redeemed, or b) [much more likely] the round type is outside your prefs. No bueno.
To cover for the potential info leak just mentionned, the token redeeming needs to be made RNG. One option: you activate it and you get a fixed chance of failure+refund, regardless (plus the above pref restriction), so at least theres some cloudiness as to why your token was rejected.
A more information-secure option: being in posession of a token gives you an automatic 50~% chance of activation each round, followed by prefs, followed by a confirmation message (after the round) that your token is redeemed successfully. I.E. no indication on char gen whether there was even an attempt to redeem, and no way for the user to pick and choose when to do it (to game it based on population or other factors).
Before yelling at me about how this last option ruins your rounds:
a) just disable antags if you dont want it at all
b) your antag round was a random stroke of luck, your compensation for losing it should be a random stroke of luck. it's not a hard queue with a turn order.
Anyways just spitballing here, yell words at me
RE: Antag Tokens should respect your prefs - UrsulaMejor - 08-05-2019
random thought, but sorta like what crimes is saying, what if antag tokens were refactored into passive tokens based on antagonist, and all they did was guarantee that the next round that round type is played while you're on you're guaranteed to get it (barring multiple redemption conflicts)?
RE: Antag Tokens should respect your prefs - KikiMofo - 08-05-2019
No auto token use. That would personally be the worst fucking thing.
RE: Antag Tokens should respect your prefs - warcrimes - 08-05-2019
(08-05-2019, 10:16 AM)KikiMofo Wrote: No auto token use. That would personally be the worst fucking thing.
Before yelling at me about how this last option ruins your rounds:
a) just disable antags if you dont want it at all
b) your antag round was a random stroke of luck, your compensation for losing it should be a random stroke of luck. it's not a hard queue with a turn order.
RE: Antag Tokens should respect your prefs - Lady Birb - 08-05-2019
I think maskedman's option is best. If metaknowledge is really that much of a problem, then make it so if the roundtype conflicts with your antag preferences you just get made into an observer and the token is refunded. As many people have said, if you have an antag turned off, it almost always means you would rather sit out the round then play that antagonist.
RE: Antag Tokens should respect your prefs - Joefesok - 08-05-2019
Two things:
I don't think you should ever have to sit out on a round for using an Antag Token, which is already intended to make up for a bad round. Giving someone another bad round (arguably a far worse round) seems completely counter-intuitive.
Also, my point of pre-determining the round type was that only one person can do it: one person uses their token in advance for a 100% shot at their preferred antagonists. The round type is determined at that point and anonymous to everybody except admins and the person who had used their token. If someone wants to use their token for that token round, they can roll the dice on what antag they are getting, under the same terms as current rolls work. I think this is relatively metagame proof unless whoever used the token decides to spoil the round type before the round begins for whatever reason.
RE: Antag Tokens should respect your prefs - OMJ - 08-05-2019
giving antag tokens an 80% chance of working could solve the meta knowledge issue even w/amended preferences
RE: Antag Tokens should respect your prefs - KikiMofo - 08-05-2019
(08-05-2019, 01:38 PM)John Warcrimes Wrote:(08-05-2019, 10:16 AM)KikiMofo Wrote: No auto token use. That would personally be the worst fucking thing.
Before yelling at me about how this last option ruins your rounds:
a) just disable antags if you dont want it at all
b) your antag round was a random stroke of luck, your compensation for losing it should be a random stroke of luck. it's not a hard queue with a turn order.
I shouldnt have to change MY antag preferences just because of the tokens. Tokens are suppose to be an apology or a reward. Forcing you to use them when you dont wish to is not a very good apology or a good reward. Ive been saving up my tokens for years now and haven't used them because I knew someday we would eventually change it to let us pick the antags. If suddenly I play and my tokens are being used without my permission what the heck would that mean? The tokens also do not affect the RNG that chooses natural antag rounds as far as I know, So I dont know what you mean by the whole turn order and luck stuff.
RE: Antag Tokens should respect your prefs - DyssalC - 08-05-2019
I feel like there's a very serious sense of antag entitlement here, and I agree with Warcrimes on the tokens being random. Turning the "apology" tokens into an upgraded version of rolling antag just seems silly, considering that it kinda implies this idea that "I lost my antag round, therefore I am owed an even better antag round of my choice", which isn't the case at all.
You lost a random success, you gain a random success. That seems more than fair. Especially considering that, lets be real, it didn't ruin anyone's day when they lost their antag round to an admin pressing the "blow up server" button, so the coders and admin staff shouldn't be expected to bend over backwards to please you.
Also, Kiki, you saving your tokens specifically so you can spend them once they've been changed to let you pick your antag role was your choice, that has nothing to do with whether or not this should actually happen.
RE: Antag Tokens should respect your prefs - Wisecrack34 - 08-05-2019
I feel like a somewhat decent middle ground would be that once you spend it you will be somewhat prioritized for antag picking if your preference is available (Doubled odds maybe?). This'll let kleptomaniacs who like holding onto them do just that without potentially giving away the round type by accident for people who don't.
RE: Antag Tokens should respect your prefs - robertGN - 08-06-2019
Somewhat similar idea to Warcrimes':
We already have an antag weighting system implemented, would it work out to have a toggleable mode that just gives much higher weights to the redeemer at the cost of their tokens when they get selected? It would prevent any meta-knowledge without pushing people into antags they don't like, while also not forcing people to immediately redeem their tokens and still have a shot at non-token antag.
The only downside I can see is that tokens become significantly less useful for an immediate antagonist round.
RE: Antag Tokens should respect your prefs - KikiMofo - 08-06-2019
Antag entitlement my fucking ass. Its as simple as this. I got the tokens, The tokens are mine, I wish to use the tokens when I wish to use them.
It aint nothing about being entitled to anything. I already have the tokens and if I don't wish to use them I should not be forced to use them. Thats why I don't like Warcrimes suggestion on forcing me to use something that is already mine and I do not wish to use.
RE: Antag Tokens should respect your prefs - Kira - 08-06-2019
I don’t really think it’s entitlement to want to only play something that is allowed on your prefs.
I’m not sure the best solution though either.
I like the one that makes you observe if it’s not a compatible round. It seems relatively simple to implement and I would rather sacrifice one round then be forced to play something I find unenjoyable.
RE: Antag Tokens should respect your prefs - Joefesok - 08-06-2019
My thought is that if I spend an antag token, I want to play the game; I am ready to play the video game space station 13. So if I spend a token then sit out of a potentially half an hour to hour long round, that really sucks. This is also not to speak of Goon1.
RE: Antag Tokens should respect your prefs - Zamujasa - 08-06-2019
What if, and this is stupid, but redeeming a token let you pick the game mode, and ensured an antag role within it?
Say you redeem a token pre-game, and you can pick from nuke/blob/wiz/etc., and ensure a spot as one of the round-relevant antagonists.
Limit token redemption for players to once every few rounds. If multiple people choose, either their choices can be merged or only one wins out.