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+--- Thread: Hey hey this item is really slow to pull! Fix it! (/showthread.php?tid=8175)
RE: Hey hey this item is really slow to pull! Fix it! - Vitatroll - 03-12-2017
It's not that bad?
My opinion: It's way too heavy and applied to too many thing.
My suggestion:
- Apply slowdown to: bodies, body containers, anything else abusable. Body slowdown negated by cuffs.
- Slowdown should only be enough to allow an uninjured person to catch up in a footrace. I can't really guess at this, but I'm thinking 5-15%?
The way the movement system interacts with the drag system is too wonky for it to be universal.
RE: Hey hey this item is really slow to pull! Fix it! - Roomba - 03-12-2017
I think part of the issue is that nearly all the suggested mobility options for moving crates/lockers etc. around are only really useful by QM - more specifically, for moving stuff from QM to other areas. The cargo pads are useful but the cargo transporter is rare outside QM, only QMs can really make use of the MULEbots, and trying to get to a spare forklift/cargo cart so you can surreptitiously cart a crate of monkey organs to a pod generally requires way more effort than just pulling it, particularly if someone is just riding around for fun. The only generally useful option is the byzantine belt hell, and at least half the time your crate will never get there because an explosion/a clown is blocking a critical juncture.
RE: Hey hey this item is really slow to pull! Fix it! - babayetu83 - 03-13-2017
burn it all down i say
the whole idea behind this turned out to be a pipedream since belthell is frustrating and annoying to use since it's so easy to clog up and render unusable and is still wildly inefficient compared to just manually dragging the crate there
RE: Hey hey this item is really slow to pull! Fix it! - Nnystyxx - 03-13-2017
yeah i feel like crippling everything else to make qm useful has mixed results
why not just, make qm good, rather than making everything else suck
edit: also while ed is a relatively extreme side of the argument, i do think the spirit of some things he says are right and the whole list of complaints from others should not be ignored due to his own particular hyperbole
edit2: the fact of the matter is that this made the game extremely tedious in its first deployment (not ideal) and has slowly been improving, but still leaves the game slower and more frustrating to play while the various quartermaster impedimenta are not much better than they were
does the mulebot still pause every few tiles to recalculate for several seconds like buddies do? because if so its speed is still shit
RE: Hey hey this item is really slow to pull! Fix it! - Ed Venture - 03-13-2017
Though I am being extreme in expressing how I feel about this change. Nothing I've said on how it effects me in game is exaggerated or hyperbole. I highly recommend reading my past posts in this thread cause I seriously am tired of repeating the same things over and over again. Though I want to thank you regardless for saying others should not be ignored. I'm not the only person who have stated the same issues regardless of my own opinion on this change those issues are there. Feedback is still feedback and even though it's negative I've tried to paint the issues I see while expressing how I feel about this change. So since a month has past I wanted to go though the biggest issues for me regarding this change while expressing my views again on said change. Be warned though this change still frustrates me and it will most likely show below.
My favorite job Security is now needlessly harder and therefore most likely beyond soul crushing for any newcomer or a person who is not new but never played security.
I feel like as a security officer I am getting punished for trying to do my job when it comes to arresting people or dragging them to safety. I've been playing Security above all other roles for years now and I've went though massive bullshit while playing the role but it was fine as it came from the players but when it starts to feel like the role is being punished by people who create content for this game I lose my drive to play the role. (I know it was not the intention by the coders for it to come off this way) The job is hard enough when the crew shits on you most of the time and this change added another layer of awful to the role.
Side Note: If you ask why I play the role. I play security for player interaction and to help defend people from rampagers cause someone has to. Plus people have been asking for someone to play security during low population times and I try and make time to do just that. Most of the time the good times as Security stick with me more then the bad times.
This Change also just makes me kill antags on the spot instead of taking them all the way to security or risk the port-a-brig as they could have a freedom implant and jump me when I let them out and despite me not really caring, that is frown upon in this community in some cases.
Dragging people to safety is now too risky as I just end up extremely hurt or dead.
The game now comes to a complete stand still now at times. I waste more of my time and the time of the people I arrest cause of this change. The Port a brig helps but I already stated my issues with that on the past pages and in other threads. The port-a-brig is not a fix but a very small band-aid to this issue and not a reliably one at that.
Everything I've said came from my own experiences with this change and frankly the game got bogged down with this change cause Grayshift felt the way he did things was fun and wanted to impose his "fun" on to all of us and as I said in the past month I don't agree with forcing everyone to play a certain way cause some items don't get used. Make those items better instead of making everything worse and if you can't then don't bother. Before you ask me how I would make those items better without this change I want to say. I don't know. I never used those items, never asked for those items and therefore would not know or care to figure out on how to get the rest of the players to use them.
Honestly who fucking cares if it's not realistic how fast we were pulling bodies and crates? It's a god damn space game where we fight yetis, plant monsters and giant Elmo heads crash into the station while we fart on each other as the stations burns. Realism has it's place in this game but it has to be fun above all else.
Despite not liking the change I gave it a chance for about a month of playing. Even with all the changes that were made to it, it's still awful.
So I'm clearly frustrated and I'm sorry that it shows in my post. My experiences have been made worse and no discussion with the coders if this change should stay or not also has me flustered and no word if dragging speeds to bodies will be change again has me flustered. I think a poll would do wonders on the subject and I've asked for one and never got a response.
In conclusion of this giant wall of text. I don't think much thought went into this change on how this would effect the game, players and the Job Roles. I think the main thought process was to make us use unused items and to stop instant kidnapping and not much else. Yeah instant kidnapping was a negative side to the old pulling speed but the positive side to it was when others tried to save people from death or antags.
RE: Hey hey this item is really slow to pull! Fix it! - TheOnlyRyan - 03-13-2017
Were people even complaining before this whole pulling speed change was implemented that pulling was too fast?
RE: Hey hey this item is really slow to pull! Fix it! - Ed Venture - 03-13-2017
(03-13-2017, 05:47 AM)TheOnlyRyan Wrote: Were people even complaining before this whole pulling speed change was implemented that pulling was too fast?
Not from my knowledge and seeing how everyone reacted when the change was first added it came out of left field.
RE: Hey hey this item is really slow to pull! Fix it! - Sundance - 03-13-2017
Eh.
I don't think the problem is the pull mechanic being changed so much as the knowledge that this is going to be one of those things that's going to take an abnormally long amount of time to adjust (see: Taser change)
I just think using the server as a testbed is a bad idea when there are serious balancing issues that come to the fore almost immedietely when implemented. That should be a sure sign to revert the change, and then approach it again when it's properly adjusted. Rather than the current form of changing it and just leaving it to fester.
I really need to emphasise that I don't think the average goon is against this change. Change is good and this change has a good motive behind it. It's the process of it, and the knowledge that this is going to be a while before it's adjusted to a managable level.
Finally, for most nerfs I'm of the opinion that is something is nerfed heavily, then there is two routes that you need to take. First route is to nerf it and leave it at that. For the most part this route isn't really justified, but there are times where it's required because it's being abused (see Loafer). The second route is to nerf it and expand upon alternatives.
In this case, the alternatives are very limited, which is why it should be reviewed.
RE: Hey hey this item is really slow to pull! Fix it! - Ed Venture - 03-13-2017
I'd be down with it getting removed and re-added in the future when it's fully fleshed out and there are dragging alternatives for every role effected.
RE: Hey hey this item is really slow to pull! Fix it! - awfulworldkid - 03-13-2017
A problem with pretty much any pulling system:
>geneticist traitor
>buy stims
>get hulk
>get thermal resistance
>get adrenaline rush
>activate adrenaline rush and stims simultaneously
>drag 1 person with pull and 1 in each hand with grab
>iwanttogetoffmrboneswildride.wav
RE: Hey hey this item is really slow to pull! Fix it! - Superlagg - 03-13-2017
In regards to pulling people to safety, as far as I know you can still throw people. May not be the safest or most elegant solution, but it's quick and it works.
RE: Hey hey this item is really slow to pull! Fix it! - Frank_Stein - 03-13-2017
I think the drag speeds for most things have been adjusted to a level that's acceptable across the board. The only things that I can think of that are still bery slow are lockers, but that's no big deal.
My only complaint about the current dragging is how it'll still be in effect a bit after you've stopped dragging something.
RE: Hey hey this item is really slow to pull! Fix it! - Mordent - 03-13-2017
(03-13-2017, 06:35 AM)Ed Venture Wrote: I'd be down with it getting removed and re-added in the future when it's fully fleshed out and there are dragging alternatives for every role effected.
- Medical Staff:
- Port-a-Med (or whatever it's called) to transport people to medbay. If you're dragging them there anyway this is not significantly slower. You also can only drag one person at a time anyway, so transporting one person at a time isn't much slower (transport one, drag another some of the way if you're worried about recharging - this is actually faster than pre-Port-a-med).
- NanoMed remote in PDA to treat people on-site.
- Getting people out of hazardous areas (normally ones that are depressurised/on fire), "first response". This problem did not really exist before, and now does. Be more robust in your own gear (i.e. able to deal with the hazardous environment yourself) and treat the other person while dragging. More people may die because of inability to get them all out of the area at once, but so what? Come get them after and get them to the cloner. Alternatively, have a cyborg come help you out. Your synthetic buddies can now actually help rather than just be a sub-par human doctor in basically every way.
- Port-a-Med (or whatever it's called) to transport people to medbay. If you're dragging them there anyway this is not significantly slower. You also can only drag one person at a time anyway, so transporting one person at a time isn't much slower (transport one, drag another some of the way if you're worried about recharging - this is actually faster than pre-Port-a-med).
- Security:
- Port-a-Brig remote in PDA to brig transport people to security (requires you to get there fairly quick, but you were going there anyway, right?).
- Alternatively, just cuff and pull them - cuffed drag speed isn't overly slow, and if you've got the right person that's one less antag so odds are you aren't needed to deal with things as much.
- First response has same issue as medical staff.
- Port-a-Brig remote in PDA to brig transport people to security (requires you to get there fairly quick, but you were going there anyway, right?).
- QM:
- Moving things around in cargo: a bit slow, but you're not moving things far. It actually gives you something to do now rather than be idle for half the round.
- Sending things to other departments: you have plenty of options, just takes a few more seconds to get going than simply pulling the crate there yourself.
- Moving things around in cargo: a bit slow, but you're not moving things far. It actually gives you something to do now rather than be idle for half the round.
- Mining:
- You don't have far to drag crates. You have a cargo transporter/pipes to transport stuff. Marginal problem at best.
- You don't have far to drag crates. You have a cargo transporter/pipes to transport stuff. Marginal problem at best.
- Engineering:
- Dragging air/O2 canisters around is a bit of a pain. Cyborgs can speed this up a lot. Repressurising areas takes ages anyway, the drag speed isn't the limiting factor here.
- Dragging canisters around in engineering is a bit slower. No big deal, you'll only be staring at the engine output and drooling over the increasing numbers otherwise anyway.
- Dragging air/O2 canisters around is a bit of a pain. Cyborgs can speed this up a lot. Repressurising areas takes ages anyway, the drag speed isn't the limiting factor here.
- Changeling
- Dragging folks off to go and absorb them actually requires the element of surprise, else any observing crew can keep up with you and report your location constantly. Plan your ambushes better, or drag off into space where they can't easily follow. If they can follow: you're a changeling, you're tougher than them. Robust them then eat them too/scare them off. Bonus: crew have a harder time outrunning you to drag your victims away, so I'd say this balances out.
- Dragging folks off to go and absorb them actually requires the element of surprise, else any observing crew can keep up with you and report your location constantly. Plan your ambushes better, or drag off into space where they can't easily follow. If they can follow: you're a changeling, you're tougher than them. Robust them then eat them too/scare them off. Bonus: crew have a harder time outrunning you to drag your victims away, so I'd say this balances out.
- Traitor
- Dragging people away after you've stunned them somehow is harder. Oh no, you actually have to think a bit more now rather than just stun/drag/kill. I've seen way more traitor gimmicks that don't involve stun/drag/kill since the change. Again, you also benefit in that crew can't just drag your victims away without the risk of you engaging them and bringing them down too.
- Dragging people away after you've stunned them somehow is harder. Oh no, you actually have to think a bit more now rather than just stun/drag/kill. I've seen way more traitor gimmicks that don't involve stun/drag/kill since the change. Again, you also benefit in that crew can't just drag your victims away without the risk of you engaging them and bringing them down too.
- Nuke ops:
- Doesn't the nuke have wheels? I can't say I've bothered checking, but I don't remember significant slowdown when dragging it around as a crewmember after unscrewing it. Also comes with the "nuke ops can now catch you rather than you just disappearing in the direction of the crusher with it" caveat.
- Doesn't the nuke have wheels? I can't say I've bothered checking, but I don't remember significant slowdown when dragging it around as a crewmember after unscrewing it. Also comes with the "nuke ops can now catch you rather than you just disappearing in the direction of the crusher with it" caveat.
The "hazardous environment" issues do lead to more deaths due to people not being able to get others out of there fast enough. As medical staff, I appreciate the higher skill ceiling involved in treating folks on the scene/triaging. It beats the "drag everyone to safety, apply patches/epi" approach of the past. If you want to save everyone you need to be better prepared (have some better medchems, ProDoc glasses as standard to allow you to quickly assess who to treat (do you try to save the person who's already in crit, or get the few who aren't out of there and then go clone the person who you might not have saved anyway?).
For what it's worth, I've played all of the above roles both before and after the change, albeit not extensively for some. I haven't found any issues which cause me serious problems, save for having a harder time saving folks from exploded areas, in which case I just call in more help and have upped my medchem game to compensate (feed someone a cryo/perf/mannitol pill to give you some time to deal with others first, then get them in a bit).
Security as a first responder is trickier, as you probably don't have better medchems than what you can find in a first aid kit. It's not really your job to bother with that, though - save who you can and/or yell for medical folks to come help. I also can't emphasise enough the benefit of having a cyborg on speed-dial - any time I'm playing one and someone calls for help, I'm there pretty damned quick and dragging people from the scene to relative safety, and I've seen cyborgs do the same when playing as a crewmember.
RE: Hey hey this item is really slow to pull! Fix it! - Sam Eagle - 03-13-2017
I've only just come back to LLJK 2 after a while away. I've been very impressed with alot of the changes (especially changeling) and I see alot of really good points on both sides here. One thing im not seeing much mention of is the use of the Security chutes as well. Any thoughts on that or why people don't use them as much? I find I'm using them ALOT now, and with a portable flash set up in the security lobby as long as I take their sunglasses off first it reduces the chance of any issues upon arrival significantly.
Also having treads on helps with speed alot. This change definitely increases the chance I'll report to my local roboticist for an upgrade
RE: Hey hey this item is really slow to pull! Fix it! - Musketman12 - 03-13-2017
I haven't played since around mid-December due to my monitor not being very compatible with SS13 but since I got a second smaller monitor i'm playing again. I probably won't add anything to the discussion that hasn't already been said but personally I think this is a pointless change that changes gameplay quite negatively (particularly in the area of sec, makes it way more difficult for an already difficult job) and no one really requested/complained about this issue before.