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Full Version: [MERGED PR] Remove a few items from spy thief reward pool
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[BALANCE][INPUT]

About the PR
Removes the following items from spy rewards: Boom Boots, Banana Grenade, Surplus Crate

Why's this needed?
Boom Boots
This is a prestige traitor item. Syndicate Hat is blocked. Recently removed from surplus crates, Warcrimes confirmed these items shouldn't be devalued for the people who wish to buy them and flex.

Banana Grenades
Surplus crate only, very limited utility for a traitor item and redeeming them takes you closer to only getting payouts every other bounty.

Surplus crate
Way too much snowballing potential to be randomly available.

Changelog


Code:
changelog
(u)Flappybat
(+)Removes the following items from spy rewards: Boom Boots, Banana Grenades, Surplus crate


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I am all for this.
Seems like a good idea
(03-23-2021, 08:32 AM)github_bot Wrote: [ -> ]Guardbuddy Ammo Replicator
Only really useful for the RD.

Hard disagree with this one, its useful for anyone with knowledge of TermOS.
I'm on board for pulling the boots and *maybe* the cloner module-
I really think the rest should stay.
Thinking purely in terms of "what would the spy most want to recieve" is poor design, imo. Good items are not a guarantee, and a handful of overly-situational prizes isn't a game-breaker.

I'd be pretty dissapointed in a spy who can't use a banana grenade to their advantage.
I'm personally a fan of the randomness and sometimes badness of the items. In fact, just a night or two ago I got the cloner module and smacked it on the main cloner just for the mass distraction it caused (turns out a lot of people have never seen one and dont even know what it does, nevermind how to remove it). Missing big bounties, getting weird gear and doing your best with it is part of the charm of spy thief for me.
Perhaps adding a few items to the pool that are spy specific would be handy?
(03-23-2021, 11:10 AM)warcrimes Wrote: [ -> ]I'm on board for pulling the boots and *maybe* the cloner module-
I really think the rest should stay.
Thinking purely in terms of "what would the spy most want to recieve" is poor design, imo. Good items are not a guarantee, and a handful of overly-situational prizes isn't a game-breaker.

I'd be pretty dissapointed in a spy who can't use a banana grenade to their advantage.

While I kind of agree, getting a bounty exposes you to a level of risk, either from being spotted, breaking in or caught with/using contraband.

The much bigger problem is that going to the trouble of getting a banana grenade uses up on of your FIVE rewards before you only get rewards every other bounty. That's a significant downside.
Hmm, I don't really see the issue with some of these items being in spy, as unlike surplus crates you see the reward you will get before you deliver the bounty, right?
So if someone thinks they can benefit from an ammofab, they can try for the bounty, if not, they can just go for another one.
The issue is that too many niche/specific items just bloats the bounty menu, discouraging anyone from claiming things as it'll not be worth the effort/risk so people will just stand by waiting for the list to refresh
I think Mindslave Cloning Module, Shotglasses and Guardbuddy Ammo Replicator would be fine to remain. I'm just not convinced Shotglasses or Ammo Rep will see any real use and contribute to "spy bad" sentiment.

Shotglasses are for commitment to a bit and really need to be combod with being a barman unlike say, the emagged hypo. Ammo Rep you need a kinetic gun, an emag and an authorised access card which is a big chunk of commitment.

Quite a lot of people do not like playing spies because it slows you down and restricts your equipment. I think those are both good things for antag variety but also that spies need further work to make people enjoy the role.
I would hate to remove the possibility for stuff like that from spy rounds though, I am happy whenever I get an ammo fabricators, and like someone said earlier, shot glasses work great from a flavour perspective in them!

What if we put these on a list, and for all items on the list, they would not count towards the number of bounties, so if there is an ammofab bounty and a shot glass bounty, two more bounties for more "standard" items will also be generated.
That's still only thinking in terms of "what feels nicest to the antagonist" - it's one-sided.

A spy can still murder the rest without a single traitor item, it's been done.
Getting a shotglass is still better than not getting anything.

Not to mention increasing the consistency in which spies accumulate more-deadly items just makes the round harder for basically everyone else.
(03-24-2021, 07:33 AM)warcrimes Wrote: [ -> ]That's still only thinking in terms of "what feels nicest to the antagonist" - it's one-sided.

A spy can still murder the rest without a single traitor item, it's been done.
Getting a shotglass is still better than not getting anything.

Not to mention increasing the consistency in which spies accumulate more-deadly items just makes the round harder for basically everyone else.

This last bit, here. This is important. On RP the round length lets spy thieves consistently build entire rampage kits and accelerating that isn't going to help the matter. What does a space man do with a csaber and a cloaker? "Filler" items at least slow down the process and give, especially on RP, spy thieves things to do that are more in line with general RP play. Spy thief has issues but the rate of accumulating good gear isn't actually one of them.
(03-24-2021, 07:33 AM)warcrimes Wrote: [ -> ]That's still only thinking in terms of "what feels nicest to the antagonist" - it's one-sided.

A spy can still murder the rest without a single traitor item, it's been done.
Getting a shotglass is still better than not getting anything.

Not to mention increasing the consistency in which spies accumulate more-deadly items just makes the round harder for basically everyone else.

But this is not how a lot of players would feel when they roll spy, they'd rather be a traitor with 12 TC to spend. I don't think a poll would show any preference for spy at the moment. It would probably be rated pretty low as an antagonist.

Sure getting traitor isn't a guarantee of an OP round where you do what you want but I think we need to do further work to make people happy they get spy rather than feeling it is a handicap.

(03-24-2021, 07:51 AM)Leeanei Wrote: [ -> ]This last bit, here. This is important. On RP the round length lets spy thieves consistently build entire rampage kits and accelerating that isn't going to help the matter. What does a space man do with a csaber and a cloaker? "Filler" items at least slow down the process and give, especially on RP, spy thieves things to do that are more in line with general RP play. Spy thief has issues but the rate of accumulating good gear isn't actually one of them.

I don't know anything about spies in RP. While you do have the opportunity to build a good rampage kit we already limit a good bunch of rampage items from appearing (katana, predator and 22 pistol are the only conventional weapons allowed). We are also supposed to be distributing gear over potentially 7 spy thieves.



I have adjusted the PR to just remove Boom Boots and Banana Grenades.
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