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The Chef's Dispenser, & interdepartmental collaboration - mintyphresh - 01-12-2024
(I know this is a bit of a long post-- start reading at "in short" on the second-to-last paragraph for a TL;DR. Sorry!)
On about 5 of the 9 in-rotation maps, the kitchen has a dispenser specifically for the chef, with two variants. The first variant, HAPPY CHEF, dispenses condiments and other baking ingredients only; The other, called "kitchen fountain," has mostly the same stock but includes chems from the non-alcoholic bar dispenser. Lists of what each dispenser currently offers and where they're found are below:
HAPPY CHEF: Nadir, Kondaru, Donut2
ketchup
mustard
salt
pepper
gravy
chocolate
mint
chocolate milk
strawberry milk
Kitchen Fountain: Cog1, Donut3
All soda dispenser chems except ginger ale, grenadine, tomato, cherry
& all HAPPY CHEF ingredients except salt and gravy
#3587, #6363, #17062, and #17642 all proposed merging these two and/or adding them to all maps, but concerns were raised about how it might interfere with interdepartmental collaboration between the chef, bartender, and botany. I don't think this is a notable concern for chefs-- As TDHooligan pointed out, reagents by themselves are hardly used in recipes as more than frosting or filling; with the way the oven works, the chef benefits far more from the physical fruit itself (of a cherry, for example) than from an infinite supply of juice.
The way this concern was handled is confusing to me, too. If the Chef having access to Mint on-tap is a problem on Atlas, it's a problem on Nadir-- shouldn't it be removed from Nadir, at that point? Why isn't there parity between the two? I can get why not all maps need the soda fountain chems, because there's varying access the chef has to the bar, but why ketchup?
However... This is a fair concern for bartenders' collaboration with botany. What the bar creates IS directly affected by the funny juices you get from botany, and some drinks -- like Murdini and Prairie Fire -- absolutely should not be chemgrouped to hell, because they're strong-- there's mechanical incentive to get these drinks. Prairie Fire decays into a massive amount of capsaicin, and Murdini decays into a massive amount of ethanol. But these drinks are the exception, not the rule; almost all of the drinks that currently require Botany or QM collaboration are "flavor," both in-universe and in-worldbuilding, and the ingredients used to make most of them are only used in 2 or 3 recipes (2.6 on average), so even after waiting all that time the resulting expansion in drink selection is minimal.
Returning back to both the bar and the kitchen combined, I think the low value recieved from botany orders is the main reason why this PR has come up so many times-- Sure, these chems can be gotten from Botany, but if that's the only source then that interaction will never happen anyways. There's no point in waiting 30-40 minutes for Botany to grow you pepper, or mustard, or ketchup, or the ingredients for gravy, or flavored milk, because they really don't do much of anything. Hell, I rarely even see people use the condiment things that are out on the counter in front of them. The only one that I can see being desired in this list outside of the dispenser is mint, and that's only because it's used to make menthol (pretty good anti-BURN med).
In short, if you're only going to use the chems themselves, the effort expended to get these botany products is rarely if ever worth the reward proposed. This PR's been made four separate times, by four separate people, because there is value to providing these chems without the help of botany or cargo, far more value than is lost by gating these chems behind interdepartmental collaboration. Do these chems need to be provided on an infinite tap? Not at all-- #15308 proposed a set of "juice boxes" that would provide a limited and unreliable supply of these chems, and with the removal of honey and capsaicin, as well as some volume rebalances, it'd be healthy for both jobs' gameplay loop.
But if we're absolutely not going to get these chef dispensers on other maps, we at least need parity-- the existing chef dispensers should be removed as well.
RE: The Chef's Dispenser, & interdepartmental collaboration - Lord_earthfire - 01-13-2024
Not every department should be the same between maps. And the kitchen dispenser is an optional tool for the chef.
Every department being generalized is, in my opinion, a problem. So the kitchen dispenser is a good example of how it should be. Another good example is the science outpost on donut 2. Or missing monkey vendors in some science departments. We need more of this, less "add a kitchen dispenser to every kitchen".
Departments should have space and reason to expand, when needed. And to deviate between maps. It gets boring when every department is stuffed to the brim because of "QOL" and you barely got any room to move and no reason to put new stuff in it.
We should probably look at other departments and clean them up a bit as well. E.g. why does every botany department got a multitool and screwdriver lying around in very near vicinity? And why do they all start with a botanical mister?
We could talk about adding a kitchen dispenser to cargo, though. That way, when it's needed as an expansion, the chef can get their dispenser. In general, some departments need optional/unlockable upgrades not included in their department.
RE: The Chef's Dispenser, & interdepartmental collaboration - Cal - 01-13-2024
honestly just shove the alcohol and soda dispenser together while keeping the other two for azone versions or whatever, that'll make at least one cube of space in every bar
(01-12-2024, 10:27 PM)mintyphresh Wrote: There's no point in waiting 30-40 minutes for Botany to grow you pepper, or mustard, or ketchup, or the ingredients for gravy, or flavored milk, because they really don't do much of anything.
this is a game where rounds last an hour thirty on rp, this is a huge amount of time. it does not take nearly 30 minutes for botany to grow you any of these. if it takes them this long, they simply didn't want to do it
RE: The Chef's Dispenser, & interdepartmental collaboration - mintyphresh - 01-13-2024
Thanks for your input! You're right -- Departments expanding and changing over time would be a cool way to make rounds more dynamic and could add new "things to do" to gameplay.
However, I don't think doing things like making the chef dispenser or botanical mister orderable from Cargo would accomplish that. The chef dispenser being orderable from Cargo falls under the same low-value interdepartmental interaction that asking Botany for these chems would be-- the only difference is that instead of weighing the cost to Botany's time and space against the potential benefit, you're weighing the cost to Engineering's time and budget. Sure, you don't know how Cargo's doing, maybe they can afford your order, maybe they can't... But it's no big deal either way, because of what I mentioned in the original post about mechanical incentives. As it is, the chef dispenser is not that mechanically impactful-- that's why it's in QoL and not something like balance. Chems in catering almost always affect... Like, the color of the food, or the flavor, which is a SINGLE WORD in the chatlog. Is that really worth draining thousands from the cargo budget? Heck no.
One really good example of departments finding it worth it to expand themselves post-roundstart is Botany! Botany doesn't start with hacked vendors, or fungus for their plants, so they venture out to gather materials to accomplish these things *because it's worth it!* Endurance has a huge effect on plant performance (and is required for certain mutations) and hacking the vendor probably like doubles the number of seeds available. And it's not some painstaking process to get the materials to do these, either, you just walk through maints for a bit.
Botany's expansion is worthwhile and fun because it's an intended part of its gameplay loop. Making major changes to how they get fungus would be a balance change, not a QoL change, because growing fungus in trays takes ages, which delays how quickly you can get mutations like Lifeweed out to Medbay.
To sum it up, "If it's not fun, why bother?" Players won't bother to expand the capabilities of their department if it isn't worth it to do so.
> If it takes them this long, they simply didn't want to do it
Wish they would just be upfront about it instead of dragging their feet...
RE: The Chef's Dispenser, & interdepartmental collaboration - Lord_earthfire - 01-13-2024
(01-13-2024, 06:59 AM)mintyphresh Wrote: However, I don't think doing things like making the chef dispenser or botanical mister orderable from Cargo would accomplish that. The chef dispenser being orderable from Cargo falls under the same low-value interdepartmental interaction that asking Botany for these chems would be-- the only difference is that instead of weighing the cost to Botany's time and space against the potential benefit, you're weighing the cost to Engineering's time and budget. Sure, you don't know how Cargo's doing, maybe they can afford your order, maybe they can't...
It's litterally cargo's job to get your dispenser, if you want it, though. Most often doing a requisition for them does the job plenty of time.
I think the problems are twofold, though.
Firstly, we don't got a culture which promotes doing your job. On other servers, you run into the risk of being jelled at by your respectable head, get demoted or heck, even get into problems with the admins.
Secondly, and i think this is more important, the departments working with each other is very often one-directional.
* Botanists don't need anything from the chef and bartender AND they got enough chems for everything except the min-maxxing.
* Chemists don't need anything from medbay or engineering
* Engineering got enough materials at rounnd start to not bother with anyones gimmicks
Let's look at examples that have two-sided interactions:
* Selling artifacts to cargo grants artsci more artifacts to research
* Cargo doing requisitions enables them to split profits
And now let's look at interactions that work because a head exists:
* The CE can very much walk into cargo and mining to supply engineering (or do it themselves)
(01-13-2024, 06:59 AM)mintyphresh Wrote: But it's no big deal either way, because of what I mentioned in the original post about mechanical incentives. As it is, the chef dispenser is not that mechanically impactful-- that's why it's in QoL and not something like balance. Chems in catering almost always affect... Like, the color of the food, or the flavor, which is a SINGLE WORD in the chatlog. Is that really worth draining thousands from the cargo budget? Heck no.
Well, firstly, it could be debated why these "flavor chems" exist in the first place... i still don't see why we have chocolate milk with both milk and chocolate existing. But that would go off-topic.
Secondly, you may have forgot that the kitchen dispenser got stuff like salt (wraiths?). Access to chems has always mechanical implications, even if they are small.
RE: The Chef's Dispenser, & interdepartmental collaboration - mintyphresh - 01-13-2024
I'm not sure either of the problems you list here are solvable, and I don't think diagnosing the source of these problems addresses the main issue I bring up, which is how the amount of effort expended by the crew compares to the rewards that having the product offers. Even if Botany/cargo were willing to drop what they're doing to help ASAP, Botany has to allocate trays, Cargo has to use its own budget, earned through the requisitions they've been doing all shift. And the reward for all that is a palette-swapped liquid with a different name and flavor. It's not worth it for anyone involved.
> Secondly, you may have forgot that the kitchen dispenser got stuff like salt (wraiths?). Access to chems has always mechanical implications, even if they are small.
Salt is one of those outlier chems that does have a pretty significant impact on wraith rounds, but I didn't mention it because I was considering chems sourced from botany... The bartender, pharmacy, and science already have the ability to program a "salt button" with the chem dispensers, having 7 chem dispensers on-station that can make salt rather than 6 is a mechanical implication too small to be a balance concern, and certainly too small to incentivize an order from Cargo unless there's an emergency, in which case Cargo's ordering it for themselves and not for the kitchen.
RE: The Chef's Dispenser, & interdepartmental collaboration - Lord_earthfire - 01-13-2024
(01-13-2024, 09:14 AM)mintyphresh Wrote: I'm not sure either of the problems you list here are solvable, and I don't think diagnosing the source of these problems addresses the main issue I bring up, which is how the amount of effort expended by the crew compares to the rewards that having the product offers. Even if Botany/cargo were willing to drop what they're doing to help ASAP, Botany has to allocate trays, Cargo has to use its own budget, earned through the requisitions they've been doing all shift. And the reward for all that is a palette-swapped liquid with a different name and flavor. It's not worth it for anyone involved.
If it is neither worth it for the chef or cargo, we should talk about removing or reworking it entirely.
If it is worth it for the chef, they should have something to give in return that makes it worth for cargo to pursue it. Like working on requisitions. If you promise cargo to help them with a requisition, they will hardly be against helping you.
It should be a trade. Botany should not need an advantage to make stuff from the chef. But rather they should get something else from the chef they can need. So we should think about what the chef could get that makes it worth it for botany or cargo to work with them.
I have something in mind for botany (once i kinda claw myself out of the hole of being a lazy fuck) that will create an optional dependancy on other department that could make them work with others more and create such trades.
RE: The Chef's Dispenser, & interdepartmental collaboration - TDHooligan - 01-13-2024
(01-13-2024, 06:54 AM)Cal Wrote: this is a game where rounds last an hour thirty on rp, this is a huge amount of time. it does not take nearly 30 minutes for botany to grow you any of these. if it takes them this long, they simply didn't want to do it
it does to make them cook it up with reagents in any meaningful quantity, while they balance their stuff. please just go to the bartender and ask for an appletini to see how much you inconvenience them.
apple juice is basically the only reason the catering QM req rarely gets fulfilled.
as for adding it to the QM's requisition list. i think that's still a massive step forward. that is nowhere near as unreliable as asking botany for some assistance. as a regular chef it's really frustrating seeing this when all i want is a slightly more sane way to get icing ingredients.
idk. i'm a regular botanist/chef and this has been a pet peeve that has irritated me *every* time I want to make cakes, i just make cocktails for coloring now
RE: The Chef's Dispenser, & interdepartmental collaboration - mintyphresh - 01-13-2024
(01-13-2024, 10:19 AM)Lord_earthfire Wrote: If it is neither worth it for the chef or cargo, we should talk about removing or reworking it entirely.
If it is worth it for the chef, they should have something to give in return that makes it worth for cargo to pursue it. Like working on requisitions. If you promise cargo to help them with a requisition, they will hardly be against helping you.
It should be a trade. Botany should not need an advantage to make stuff from the chef. But rather they should get something else from the chef they can need. So we should think about what the chef could get that makes it worth it for botany or cargo to work with them.
I have something in mind for botany (once i kinda claw myself out of the hole of being a lazy fuck) that will create an optional dependancy on other department that could make them work with others more and create such trades.
I don't think reworking interdepartmental relations to be like trading is the right solution to this problem, people don't really like trading or paying players for things in this game outside of player-made shops. We're just talking about whether or not chefs can have access to a few more liquid ingredients at the bar, we don't need to restructure station work culture to fix this problem. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on what you have in mind for Botany in another thread, but can we please keep the discussion lower-level than this for now?
RE: The Chef's Dispenser, & interdepartmental collaboration - Lord_earthfire - 01-13-2024
(01-13-2024, 02:04 PM)mintyphresh Wrote: We're just talking about whether or not chefs can have access to a few more liquid ingredients at the bar, we don't need to restructure station work culture to fix this problem. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on what you have in mind for Botany in another thread, but can we please keep the discussion lower-level than this for now?
Sure i seem to have gotten the focus of the discussion wrong there. My bad
RE: The Chef's Dispenser, & interdepartmental collaboration - Tyrant - 01-13-2024
As one of the people who made a PR trying to unify the chef dispensers across maps (and had it subsequently closed), I personally find any sort of decrease in functionality in some maps vs other maps odd. Part of why I don't like playing on Atlas as much as other maps, for example. I'm very much of the mind that if something is on one map, it should be the same on all the others. So either make all maps have one (which is what I tried to PR) or remove them altogether, if reducing interdepartmental cooperation is such a problem. Both options seem fine to me, but this odd middle ground of having them on some and not others is strange to me.
Plus, not even all chef dispensers on the maps use the same ingredients list (see PR #17062 for details).
Botany, sort of like chemistry (and to an extent, cargo), is a department that should definitely be cooperating with others. This much, I'm on board with. There have been proposals for botany-kitchen interlinks/request consoles, which just haven't been PR'd yet, but most likely will see light of day within the year.
I feel like if the chef dispensers are to be removed entirely (or better, carefully picking the ingredients available from it so that botany interaction is maximised, leaving some reagents still available), it would be nice to have something that aids the kitchen in requesting things from botany. After all, having fruits launched through the mail system, while funny, can lead to a huge mess, etc.
That's just my 2 cents on the issue, though. Seeing as people not in the know about this such as mintyphresh and myself try to make pr's fixing this, and it will definitely happen again if nothing is done.
RE: The Chef's Dispenser, & interdepartmental collaboration - Frank_Stein - 01-15-2024
(01-13-2024, 10:34 PM)Tyrant Wrote: As one of the people who made a PR trying to unify the chef dispensers across maps (and had it subsequently closed), I personally find any sort of decrease in functionality in some maps vs other maps odd. Part of why I don't like playing on Atlas as much as other maps, for example. I'm very much of the mind that if something is on one map, it should be the same on all the others. So either make all maps have one (which is what I tried to PR) or remove them altogether, if reducing interdepartmental cooperation is such a problem. Both options seem fine to me, but this odd middle ground of having them on some and not others is strange to me.
I think it can give certain spaces character. For instance, Oshan having expanded options for sushi and seafood, or the defunct Samedi's over abundance of liquor. Samedi
RE: The Chef's Dispenser, & interdepartmental collaboration - mintyphresh - 01-15-2024
(01-15-2024, 12:14 PM)Frank_Stein Wrote: I think it can give certain spaces character. For instance, Oshan having expanded options for sushi and seafood, or the defunct Samedi's over abundance of liquor. Samedi
Very fair, I can definitely see some value to that... But I don't really think it can be used to defend the case of the chef dispensers, since the dispensers are pretty generic.
Also, why is there "samedi" in really small font at the end of your post there?
RE: The Chef's Dispenser, & interdepartmental collaboration - Frank_Stein - 01-16-2024
Easter Egg
RE: The Chef's Dispenser, & interdepartmental collaboration - mintyphresh - 01-16-2024
Oh shit .... Forum achievemebt hunting......