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+--- Thread: The hygiene meter kind of stinks (/showthread.php?tid=22515)
RE: The hygiene meter kind of stinks - Kotlol - 04-16-2024
(04-15-2024, 06:28 PM)Kamikaze Mongoose Wrote: Showering and washing your hands doesn't disrupt stale roleplay situations, it disrupts fun. The forums and discord channels are full of complaints over hygiene because of this and it will continue to come up until it inevitably gets removed.
Food and drinks work cause you can visit other places.
You can go to the cafeteria and see what's going on there and have some food.
You can go to a vending machine and get a fast snack.
You can go to botany to get some weed with some of their natural grown food.
With washing, most of the time people go: "WHERE'S THE SHOWERS?!"
In my opinion, I don't care for the stink lines unless I roleplay someone respectable. But most of the time I don't bother, especially jobs that get me messy every time.
So to fix being filthy, everyone has to go to the showers.. but no roleplay ever happens there. Cause in real life, most people do not shower or bath with others. Privacy you know? Then add the mechanic you cannot wear anything thus dropping most of your gear before showering, leaving them exposed and having a risk.. Yea I do rather have stink lines or take a QUICK SHOWER to make sure my stuff doesn't get stolen. Since most showers do not have personal lockers...
Anyway I mentioned most of this before... I don't think it has to be removed at all. I just think we should "mask" the stink lines with mechanics we already have.
Like for example, that "flowery" status we see that botany can make and some devices. I think it's suppose to make you smell good but the buff does nothing?
I never figured it out since it's rare to see.
Eitherway... we don't like the hygiene meter for various reasons. It doesn't motivate you to interact in the showers/bathrooms cause...
- most people crave privacy there and not getting their items stolen.
- There is mostly only 1 location for showers on the station.
- Most just want to get it over with asap.
So it takes you away from hubs to a place no one wants to interact.
RE: The hygiene meter kind of stinks - Scaltra - 05-25-2024
Honestly, I agree a lot with Kamikaze Mongoose's points, Personally, I would like the removal of the negative side of showering and would love to see an RP incentive to shower, do your laundry, and the like so you can choose to Roleplay a very well kept character and choose to interact with the system.
Currently one of my main problems is people are forced to interact with this system and we get a lot of malicious compliance basically to skip it and get it out of the way as soon as possible. In my opinion, this hurts RP more than anyway it helps were we see people wasting time running around looking for the unmarked shower rooms, spending several in-game minutes trying to figure out how a bathtub works because they couldn't find a shower. Then you have the people who know the workaround and just jump in the pool or pour water on the ground and flop around in it.
Food works IMO because it both has a buff and a social aspect and people who have a job specifically do that, the janitor typically isn't running around with the RP focus of bathing people anyway.
RE: The hygiene meter kind of stinks - Glamurio - 05-25-2024
(05-25-2024, 01:01 PM)Scaltra Wrote: Food works IMO because it both has a buff and a social aspect and people who have a job specifically do that, the janitor typically isn't running around with the RP focus of bathing people anyway.
Food also works because it is abundant and easy to obtain. There's like 10 vending machines on every station and additionally, oftentimes food such as donuts is just lying about. We have a dedicated area that is publicly accessible (the kitchen) that is dedicated to making food. Throw in botany as well.
Showers, meanwhile, are often hidden in maintenance paths, behind crew quarters, close to the gym, they're not easy to find for newbees and even as a veteran I sometimes have to open up the map on some stations because I simply forgot. Handwashing was a really good change, and imo, I don't think the "50% or higher" requirement is a good thing, let people fill up their hygiene at sinks at least then they're more likely to do it instead of being stinky all round.
We have fully functioning laundry machines but there's no reason to ever use them unless you can't find the shower. And I'd argue that if you removed shower cleaning clothing, people would just run around dirty. If this is something to be fixed, we need dedicated, large public areas and some sort of tangible buff that goes along with it, rather than adding a debuff if you don't engage with it. Doing laundry is a better "hygiene" mechanic than showering because you can do it in public spaces and it furthers conversation. Make people with nice-smelling clothes have increased stamina-regen for X minutes, tie it to a variable on the clothing. We can still have a debuff for dirty clothing too, but making people want to clean themselves needs an incentive other than "RP", of which people have mentioned, there is painfully little.
RE: The hygiene meter kind of stinks - Lord_earthfire - 05-25-2024
(05-25-2024, 02:33 PM)Glamurio Wrote: Food also works because it is abundant and easy to obtain. There's like 10 vending machines on every station and additionally, oftentimes food such as donuts is just lying about. We have a dedicated area that is publicly accessible (the kitchen) that is dedicated to making food. Throw in botany as well.
I would argue that why food does not work to facilitate RP. You go 4 tiles out of your department, take some fries out of the vendor, and go back into the department.
The food motive has not got you out of your department for a prolonged time, it has not disrupted you, it failed at it's most basic task.
To prevent the same for hygiene, the 50% cap on hand-washing was added.
RE: The hygiene meter kind of stinks - Kotlol - 05-26-2024
This got necro'd.
So let's get some things in order.... since it's been months and I got things to add.
1: What does hygiene do for you?
Does it make your job worst? Nah.
Does it have any bad things going if you let it drop to 0? Nah.
Does it just annoy you to interact with it? On all levels.
Thus.. people either speedshower or stop caring... cause.. why would I?
2: It costs time and no money alternative.
The thing about food most of the time is the fact you have to go to the kitchen for free food and drinks.
Find a vendor and take drinks and food from that.
Or.. hope you have donuts on your department.
With hygiene... there is no such thing... let alone shower heads are tiny and annoying to click. Baths are cumbersome and no one likes to spam click handwashing anyone, but handwashing atleast allows you to stay alert.
And Cleaning clothes and going to the toilet does NOTHING. Thus... why bother?
3: Getting dirty is too easy.
There is no metre that can drop to 0 faster then the hygiene one. You slip and fall into blood or oil. Welp get to the shower dipshit!
Adding another layer of NOT FUN.
4: Would NT care in you are dirty?
The answer is probably no. Or else we wouldn't have discount dan's as our main food source in vendors.
5: In real life... when do you shower?
...After a job, game or such and talk with your group. You do not shower in between as much as people think.
Most shower if it's a saftey hazard... NOT ANYTHING ELSE!
And besides some people want to privately shower.
Anyway... we need "preventive measures" , we need reasons to do it BESIDES "you look clean".
A buff for being squeeky clean for example. A negative trait if you are stinky like you can't eat or drink propperly and will fail 70% of the time due to gagging of your own stench.
Have us use the toilets as an alternate way of increasing hygiene.
Have us use freshly clean clothes as a deterant for hygiene.
But don't say you want to add it for RP reasons. Cause in reality... not many people want to interact with eachothers on the showers.
But waiting in the laundry room? That's a classic!
RE: The hygiene meter kind of stinks - Glamurio - 05-27-2024
(05-25-2024, 02:51 PM)Lord_earthfire Wrote:(05-25-2024, 02:33 PM)Glamurio Wrote: Food also works because it is abundant and easy to obtain. There's like 10 vending machines on every station and additionally, oftentimes food such as donuts is just lying about. We have a dedicated area that is publicly accessible (the kitchen) that is dedicated to making food. Throw in botany as well.
I would argue that why food does not work to facilitate RP. You go 4 tiles out of your department, take some fries out of the vendor, and go back into the department.
The food motive has not got you out of your department for a prolonged time, it has not disrupted you, it failed at it's most basic task.
To prevent the same for hygiene, the 50% cap on hand-washing was added.
And I would disagree. Food is an amazing RP tool, you can go and meet people at the bar when you grab a drink, or check out whatever cool dishes are on offer at the kitchen, it gives the chef a reason to try, the bartender a reason to listen. It doesn't force you, mind you, it's not like you have to RP, that's why the vendors exist. But once every so often, you have a nice bit of RP interaction from grabbing a coffee or otherwise.
Hygiene doesn't work that way. You don't go showering with co-workers. The pool might work, but that has other concerns which is why I'd rather not see that aspect explored. Hygiene, outside from smelling, which I bring up to every single person, always, forever, is purely personal. That's why it fails to lead to any meaningful RP. It's not an RP activity. But it could be one. With the power of laundromats.
RE: The hygiene meter kind of stinks - Lord_earthfire - 05-27-2024
(05-27-2024, 06:13 AM)Glamurio Wrote: Hygiene doesn't work that way. You don't go showering with co-workers. The pool might work, but that has other concerns which is why I'd rather not see that aspect explored. Hygiene, outside from smelling, which I bring up to every single person, always, forever, is purely personal. That's why it fails to lead to any meaningful RP. It's not an RP activity. But it could be one. With the power of laundromats.
You see it only from the destination's point of view, where you be right.
That's why i am sayibg its about getting you out of your department, not into a shower. The RP with hygiene happens because you move out of the shower and into another situation. You see the shop the stsffie opened at the public market. Or run into the hands of a gang. Hygiene very much is a "it's about the way, not the goal" kind of motive.
(05-27-2024, 06:13 AM)Glamurio Wrote: It doesn't force you, mind you, it's not like you have to RP, that's why the vendors exist.
I think it's highly questionable why we give an easy opt-out for mechanics that try to get you into RP. We are going away from these things with recent chsnges that heavily promote interdepartmental cooperation as well.
RE: The hygiene meter kind of stinks - JOELED - 05-27-2024
I don't think hygiene does well for getting people out of their departments when it comes down to it. People who are willing to leave departments for motives already do so for the other two, and generally find other reasons to leave their department throughout a 90 minute round regardless. If they already don't want to be interrupted, hygiene doesn't do it -- they either ignore it, or find a less disruptive way to handle it (in-department showers like many departments have, or pools of water).
Regardless, I feel like now, if ever, is a great time for this conversation to be revisited. Nightshade is bringing in tons of new players, and from frequenting the discord and servers I'm seeing negative feelings/frustration from players on there who get to experience goon RP without the hygiene motive before branching out to try our actual goon RP servers and finding it an obtrusive and irritating mechanic they much prefer to play RP without. Now if only the folks in there had forum accounts it would be easier to hear their opinions here too lol
RE: The hygiene meter kind of stinks - Fuppy - 05-27-2024
I'll just reiterate what I said on the last thread regarding hygiene along with some other thoughts. I don't think hygiene adds anything substantial to the game. At best it is a minor annoyance that you either leave your department to clear up or make a pool of water on the ground to splash in, and at worst you're in the middle of RPing and either have to break the moment by going to shower to get rid of the stinklines/flavortext or suffer through it. There is definitely an idea of what RP showering could potentially bring as opposed to what really happens: you walking into a room, turning a shower/bath on and standing still for one second and leaving. Granted its nice seeing the icon turn green but not much else.
I've never had my PDA/ID stolen while showering, I've been attacked by an antag a grand total of once in the shower and it was over a year ago at this point, and I can safely say the interactions I've been pulled into by leaving my department to go shower could have easily been facilitated by food/drink... hell you're usually hungry and thirsty as well by the time you go and shower. One could say the same thing about eating and drinking for a lot of these negative points I've brought up, but there is at least the potential of RP with the bar. I've had far more person to person interaction facilitated in a single round by eating and drinking than I ever have with the hygiene stat.
RE: The hygiene meter kind of stinks - Cal - 05-27-2024
(05-27-2024, 09:29 AM)Fuppy Wrote: I've never had my PDA/ID stolen while showering, I've been attacked by an antag a grand total of once in the shower and it was over a year ago at this point, and I can safely say the interactions I've been pulled into by leaving my department to go shower could have easily been facilitated by food/drink... hell you're usually hungry and thirsty as well by the time you go and shower. One could say the same thing about eating and drinking for a lot of these negative points I've brought up, but there is at least the potential of RP with the bar. I've had far more person to person interaction facilitated in a single round by eating and drinking than I ever have with the hygiene stat.
Summarizes my issues with hygiene succinctly.
If hygiene had a bigger role - First step perhaps being showering maybe slowly raising your hygiene over time, maybe having stuff to help with it (brush your teeth? use soap? deodorant that chemistry can make?) it'd probably be cooler. But that's also more time spent in the shower.
I can invite people to go get food or a drink. I can't exactly invite people to go shower with me!
RE: The hygiene meter kind of stinks - Kotlol - 05-27-2024
(05-27-2024, 11:11 AM)Cal Wrote: I can't exactly invite people to go shower with me!
I think if you do that, you as an admin will go: "FUNNY BUSINESS?!"
That's the problem with hygiene. Any solvenant is rather done SOLO.
The best I can think off is a "decontainmination room" where you can sit in for like 1 minute and be squeeky clean (or less time)
But it has limited space and can only be activated once in a while. While showering and bathing leaves you longer vunerable. (so like 2-3 minutes of showering)
Basically if we want hygiene to start roleplay and have people go together to a room where they don't have to take off anything to clean. A large room that instantly cleans everything and puts hygiene to 100% would be a great place.
Let alone this room would also be a great spot for antags to strike.
But that's just adding something to stations wich isn't always as good.
What hygiene needs more AT THIS VERY MOMENT is ways to surpress it that is not: Handwashing or going to the showers/bath's.
Just like food you can buy some, store it away and use it later at your desk.
With hygiene you can't.. and it's easy for that to drop then hunger or thrist. So giving us items on hand to increase it would be great.
RE: The hygiene meter kind of stinks - Glamurio - 05-28-2024
(05-27-2024, 11:11 AM)Cal Wrote: I can invite people to go get food or a drink. I can't exactly invite people to go shower with me!
Much akin to what I said earlier, and I think most agree with. The issue is we're introducing a mechanic to "promote RP" which doesn't actually promote RP. I'm actually genuinely still pushing for the laundromat thing; we have them, they work, and they operate under the "well congregation" system. Historically people used to meet up at the public town / village well to fetch water and exchange gossip. Laundromats could pretty much be the same thing here. They fulfill the same hygiene need, but can be done in a public space with others. And once again, if we incentivize things via giving buffs, instead of applying debuffs, I think more people would be engaging with the systems. That's why you occasionally see people work out in the gym, too.
RE: The hygiene meter kind of stinks - Spyritdragon - 05-29-2024
I understand the frustrating in hygiene as a mechanic, but I also feel like it adds a solid bit of immersion to the RP experience for me. Once you know where the showers are, they're honestly not too hard to get to, and I like the fact that I'll notice I've been in the engine room and nothing but the engine room for too long when my character gets stinky. Not necessarily even for encouraging RP but very simply because it makes me feel more immersed and like my character is a real person on a real space station.
I do think some expansion could definitely help make it more fun though. I love the idea of the freshly-laundered clothing buff keeping your hygiene crisper for longer (and maybe lasting a bit longer than it does now). It'd be a lot easier to get too if you could lock the laundry machines so you dont have to worry about your gear getting stolen.
Things like a handheld can of deodorant come to mind that you can keep in your backpack like a snack to postpone how long you'll have to take to get a proper wash sound cool. I do have to admit I'd be sad to have it become the same as food/drink where most of the station population just goes up to a vending machine 2-3 times a shift to wolf down two plates of fries the fastest humanly possible and moves on with their shift, but I also think it'd be nice to have a few more sinks that are accessible to the general public scattered around.
RE: The hygiene meter kind of stinks - Kateaclysm - 05-29-2024
I think my main issue with hygiene is that it drains *incredibly* quickly, especially if you're a job that involves a lot of spills/blood like Security, Medical, or Janitorial. The system itself is rather one dimensional and it's really obnoxious to have to shower 3 times a shift.
RE: The hygiene meter kind of stinks - TemThrush - 05-29-2024
I generally disagree with the idea that hunger and thirst "encourage" RP any more than hygiene. Hunger and thirst have never been effective motives for me, since they're largely unnoticeable and easy to forget. It's easy to get caught up in your job or any number of tasks over the course of a round. Meanwhile, the hygiene motive has consistently grabbed my attention and reminded me of my character's "needs." The fact that it is so noticeable and is tied to specific destinations on the station, requiring you to move around, is exactly what makes it work so well for me. The status effect, while completely harmless, gets people to move.
Similar to how a character walking up to you with bloody hands or while visibly injured provides an easy thread to react off of, hygiene provides a similar hint to the state of the station or that individual's shift. RP scenarios have started with my character being sweaty and overworked, then someone choosing to react. Like how eating food by itself isn't social, a lot of the actions that surround it can be, and I believe the same can be said with hygiene. Hygiene might not benefit from a high-traffic area like the bar, but that doesn't mean it's inherently a solitary motive that "takes you away from the RP."
(04-16-2024, 02:44 AM)Kotlol Wrote: ...
...So to fix being filthy, everyone has to go to the showers.. but no roleplay ever happens there. Cause in real life, most people do not shower or bath with others. Privacy you know? ...
(05-27-2024, 06:13 AM)Glamurio Wrote: ...
...Hygiene doesn't work that way. You don't go showering with co-workers. ...
(05-27-2024, 11:11 AM)Cal Wrote: ...
I can invite people to go get food or a drink. I can't exactly invite people to go shower with me!
You can invite your co-workers to the showers WITHOUT it being weird, I promise. No, I'm not saying showering with people. It's actually because of a desire for privacy that I started the habit of inviting a co-worker or two to come to the showers to watch the door. Which, I believe in large part, made an otherwise innocuous task way more fun and social for me. Sure, the actual showering part will be over in seconds, but like Lord_earthfire has said, it's all about the journey and not the destination. Walking opens up many opportunities for things to see, talk about, interact with, etc. It's inevitable that you'll encounter others along the way. Of course, this isn't exclusive to hygiene, but the real superpower of the hygiene trait is that people really just hate being stinky. Even if someone's been a hermit the entire round, they'll likely head to the showers at some point. My own experiences with getting co-workers out of Medbay to shower have proven to me that there is some social merit to the task. Whether it was chatting with people nearby or my buddy mysteriously disappearing from the door after being lured into maintenance, you'd be surprised at what can happen just by lingering around the shower entrance for more than a couple seconds.
(05-27-2024, 08:02 AM)JOELED Wrote: I don't think hygiene does well for getting people out of their departments when it comes down to it. People who are willing to leave departments for motives already do so for the other two, and generally find other reasons to leave their department throughout a 90 minute round regardless. If they already don't want to be interrupted, hygiene doesn't do it -- they either ignore it, or find a less disruptive way to handle it (in-department showers like many departments have, or pools of water). ...
My thoughts on motives are heavily influenced by playing medical; showering was the one reliable thing that would get a couple of the doctors out when it came to treating motives, which is largely why I don't think hunger or thirst can fill that same niche. Even if you planned to address those motives, you may reach for the more convenient options, while nearby showers took some legwork.
Because of this, I'm of the opinion that the "disruptiveness" of hygiene is a plus. It is your choice as to what you prioritize. If you just can't stand the stink lines, the RP doesn't have to end; you can move the conversation to a new location to get yourself clean or just ask to be excused for a minute. Stopping what you're doing to go somewhere else for a moment is largely a good thing.
(05-25-2024, 02:33 PM)Glamurio Wrote: Food also works because it is abundant and easy to obtain. There's like 10 vending machines on every station and additionally, oftentimes food such as donuts is just lying about. We have a dedicated area that is publicly accessible (the kitchen) that is dedicated to making food. Throw in botany as well.
Showers, meanwhile, are often hidden in maintenance paths, behind crew quarters, close to the gym, they're not easy to find for newbees and even as a veteran I sometimes have to open up the map on some stations because I simply forgot...
The bar, cafeteria, and vending machines are all very easy to identify, especially in the case of the bar. Depending on the map, showers are plentiful but largely hidden away in little nooks behind featureless doors and walls, with no sign as to what they are until you open them. It makes sense that people have a difficult time finding them. That's more of a map problem, and it would be easy to fix with some signs on the floors or walls, similar to real-world public bathrooms.
(05-28-2024, 05:27 AM)Glamurio Wrote: ...
Much akin to what I said earlier, and I think most agree with. The issue is we're introducing a mechanic to "promote RP" which doesn't actually promote RP. ...
I think Solenoid's post from the previous thread lays out my thoughts on this well. Like a lot of things in the game, it's not going to directly make you RP with others; I believe it's open-ended and requires some amount of input from a player. Much like how "useless" mechanics can be used as a prop or backdrop for some RP. I think the little push hygiene gives by moving you outside your department can lead down many different roads. That, by itself, makes it valuable to me.
There's absolutely room for improvement in the way hygiene reacts to clothing or puddles. I think that tweaking it could make the mechanic less irritating for people. I love the idea of products produced by chemistry or botany to assist in hygiene management, but as it is, I think hygiene succeeds at being a good RP motive.